Part 1:
Client confidential.

Part 2.

Based on early intake notes, we are to try to assemble cooperative members of the group of co-accused and commence an investigation to determine if there is suitable argument to bring suggesting a miscarriage of justice in the Regina vs McLeod matter

ACCUSED

Gary Comeau "Nutty", Life /25

Rick Sauve Life/25

Jeff McLeod 2nd degree/10 years

Larry Hurren "Beaver", 2nd degree/10 years

Armand Sanguigni NOT Guilty

Gordon Van Harlem "Dogmap" NOT Guilty

(Murray) Merv Blaker "Indian" 10 years

David Hoffman "Tee Hee" 4.5 years

KITCHENER WIRE TAP EVIDENCE

Hoffman later proved he was not present on Oct.18, 1978 at the Queens

but pleaded guilty to accessory after the fact.

Sanguigni )

Van Harlem ) both found not guilty.

LAWYERS

(1) Comeau (2) Sauve

TRIAL;

(1) Howard Kerbel - Toronto

Bruce Affleck - Oshawa

David Newman - Toronto

Bernard Cugelman - Peterborough

John Rosen - Toronto

(2) Jack Grosman - Toronto

Terry O'Hara - Kingston

Gordon Ebbs - Peterborough

Edward Martin - HOFFMAN

CROWN'S

Chris Meinhardt - Lindsey

Roland Harris - Cobourg

P.I. Joe Bastos

LAWYERS

(1) Comeau (2) Sauve

(1) Ross McKay - Toronto

Eddie Greenspan - Toronto

Clayton Ruby - Toronto

(2) Alan Gold - Toronto

Terry O'Hara - Kingston

Brian Greenspan - Toronto

JUDGES

Justice Coulter Osborne (Cambridge,Ont.)

APPEAL

Justice Jessup

Justice Arnup

Justice Morden

1979 -- WITNESSES

Sharon Brown

Cheryl Nastuk

Douglas Peart

Jack Sunmore

Peter Murdoch

Peter La Brash

Gary Fox

Cathy Fair

James Castinette

Jerry Meretsky

Randy Koehler - Enmity

Background on fights and rivalry Matiyek/CHOICE

William Godwin - Enmity Evidence

Former Pres. EHMC

David Gillespie "Fat Fucker" statement.

Helen Mitchell - ID'd Van Harlem (Gordon)

Susan Foote - material witness

Rod Stewart - Matiyek phone call

Gail Thompson - ID'd Comeau as trigger man.

Cathy Cotgrave - material witness ID'd all accused.

ID'd Comeau as gunman 885-1667 97 Mill Rd. Port Hope

Julie Joncas - material witness , she conflicted with Stewart

Not present at time of shooting.

Lorne Campbell - shooter

No one believed Campbell, no one says they saw Campbell in bar.

Jamie Hanna - Crown witness Says she was threatened.

Brian Brideau -- he phoned Sauve to get Sauve to come to bar.

He threatened Matiyuk.

Rick Galbraith - witness, Bartender.

POSSIBLE CONTACTS. (NEED TO CONTACT)

Gary Creelman

Bobbie Cousins - he set up Sauve with Terry Hall. He was SCMC.

Linda Leon - wife of Lawrence. Question re threaatening phone calls, someone shot up Lawrence's car before he was to testify.

Sam McReelis - Port Hope Police.

Roy McMurtry - then A.G.

Fred Jones /Sonny Bronson -- outlaws.

Neil Caplan - part owner of Queens and person who gave Matiyek the gun (32 cal. pistol)

Joe Bastos -P.I. who found witnesses dropping off due to police harassment.

Bernie Guindon

Bill Lavoie

Bobby Cousins (deceased)

Mac Haig - London Free Press

Bill Glaister - Freelance reporter who covered trial.

Nig

Carol Hunter - the "old man"s wife."Cap" Hunter is "old man" at bar, he died in late '80's. Carol Hunter is Julie Joncas's mother - Julie married Leo Powell.

Susan Foote

Cathy Cotgrave married Doug Peart, then separated.

Mike Lowe - book on the "Conspiracy of Brothers".

Charmaine Campbell (Lorne is in jail).

Susan Smith

Bill Wyatt

Richard Sauve

Cranberry Road

R. R. #4

Port Hope

D.O.B. 27/7/52

David George Hoffman

20 Blacker St.

D.O.B. 3/3/1948

Larry Hurren

R.R. #6

Bowmanville

D.O.B. 5/1/1952

Gordon John van Haarlem

D.O.B. 26/7/1956

October 25, 1990

To: Hon. Kim Campbell

Minister of Justice

324 West Block

House of Commons

Dear Ms. Campbell:

Further to our discussion in the "House" concerning a constituent awaiting a decision pursuant to section 690 of the Criminal Code, I would like to summarize the case and actions to date.

In 1978 a murder took place in my riding of Northumberland. In 1980, six men were convicted of conspiracy to murder. Subsequently, the conviction of one man was overturned. Murray Blaker, Jeff McLeod and Larry Hurren, convicted of second degree murder, are on parole after serving 10 years in various prisons. Two men, Richard Sauve and Gary Comeau, were convicted of first degree murder and are still serving life sentences, with 25 years before parole. All of the men were members of the Satan's Choice motorcycle club.

Application for a new trial was made by these men in September of 1988. The Justice Department completed its investigation in January 1990 and awaits your decision.

This case has become very public and controversial as the result of the publication of the murder and trial story in a book titled "Consiracy of Brothers" by Mick Lowe. The author publicly raises serious questions concerning the integrity of the case.

The Sauve Comeau defence Committee publicizes ongoing developments of the case and the seeming inaction of the Justice Department. The committee distributes a newsletter to its members in Canada, Sweden, England, Australia and the U.S.A. Also, Steve Earle, a well- known American singer, was touring Canada early in October introducing his new song Justice in Ontario. In his preable to the song he asks his audiences to read "Conspiracy of Brothers" and refers to his song as one about a judicial 'frame-up'.

This case has been under investigation for over 2 years to determine whether a retrial is warranted. My concern is shared by other Members of Parliament, most notably the Hon. Warren Allmand and Sven Robinson, over the amount of time it is taking the Minister to reach a decision balanced by the very serious questions concerning the integrity of the case and the public perception of injustice, both nationally and internationally.

Over the past 18 months I have repeatedly urged resolution to this case. The public perception of injustice must be addressed. I respectfully ask you to take action now.

Yours very truly,

Signed: Christine Stewart, M.P.

Enclosures (2)

Copies to: N. Allmand, S. Robinson

December l0, l990

Ms. Elizabeth Thomas

Barrister & Solicitor

155 Queen Street

Ninth Floor

Ottawa, Ontario K1P 6l1

(Phone number 613-531-2660)

Dear Ms. Thomas:

I am writing to you in your capacity as counsel for Richard Sauve, Gary Comeau, Jeffrey McLeod, Mervin Blaker and Larry Hurren, on whose behalf you made an application for mercy pursuant to the provisions of section 690 of the Criminal Code.

I understand that throughout the course of the inquiries conducted in relation to this case that you made yourself available to assist officials of my Department in their efforts to address the material issues. I wish to extend to you my appreciation for the assistance provided.

The applicants were convicted of murder for their respective roles in the shooting death of Mr. William Matiyek in the lounge of the Queen's Hotel in Port Hope, Ontario on the evening of October 18, 1978. Richard Sauve and Gary Comeau were convicted of murder in the first degree while Messrs. McLeod, Blaker and Hurren were found guilty of second degree murder. I understand that Mr. Sauve and Mr. Comeau are the only applicants who remain under sentence.

At trial, the theory of Crown Counsel was that the applicants, (who were members of the Satan's Choice Motorcycle Club at the material time), had entered the Queen's Hotel with the collective intention of causing Mr. Matiyek's death or serious injury. The jury heard a considerable amount of evidence about the events inside the hotel on the evening of the shooting. They were also told about the hostile relationship which had developed over the years between Satan's Choice and Mr. Matiyek.

The jury also heard the testimony of Lorne Campbell that Mr. Matiyek's death was the unplanned consequence of a volatile situation which escalated out of control when Mr. Matiyk came into conflict with the applicants Sauve and Comeau. Mr. Campbell was called as a witness by counsel for Mr. McLeod.

Under the protection of section 5 of the Canada Evidence Act, Lorne Campbell testified that he had shot Mr. Matiyek after approaching the table where Matiyek was seated with Mr. Sauve and Mr. Comeau. Mr. Campbell stated in his evidence that he fired the fatal shots because he thought Mr. Matiyek was reaching for a gun and he felt threatened. He further stated that he had not planned to kill Mr. Matiyek and that none of the accused knew that Mr. Campbell had a gun in his possession, when he came to the Queen's Hotel on the evening of October 18, 1978.

Lorne Campbell, in cross-examination by Crown Counsel, proved to be an evasive and inconsistent witness. It was also disclosed during the course of Mr. Campbell's testimony that he had previously been convicted of perjury.

Following the close of the defence case, Crown Counsel re-called witness Susan Foote, a patron of the Queen's Hotel, who was present on the evening of the shooting. Ms. Foote had testified earlier in the trial regarding observations she had made in the period of time before, and after, the shooting of Mr. Matiyek. Testifying in reply, Ms. Foote stated that Lorne Campbell was a person well known to her. She further indicated that, in the period of time immediately prior to the shooting she had been looking around the lounge to see if she recognized anyone and she had not seen Lorne Campbell.

I am also satisfied that the jury was entitled to consider the inconsistencies between the description of the gunman and the physical appearance of Lorne Campbell. There were also significant differences between the evidence of Crown witnesses about the actions of the gunman and what Mr. Campbell says he did.

It is clear from their verdict that the jury disbelieved Mr. Campbell. The verdict was rendered after a careful and, in my view very balanced charge to the jury by the trial judge who fairly set before the trier of fact the respective theories of the Crown and the defence.

An appeal to the Ontario Court of Appeal by the applicants was unsuccessful, as was the subsequent application for leave to appeal to the Supreme Court of Canada.

The applicants, with your assistance, have requested a remedy which is granted rarely, and only in circumstances where a responsible conclusion can be drawn that a miscarriage of justice probably occurred. I regret to advise that I have been unable to reach such a conclusion in this case. There is no significant new evidence which I am asked to consider in this case. The applicants invite me, in effect, to review the evidence at trial and come to a conclusion different than the one reached by the jury. I am not prepared to do so. The jury had an opportunity to hear the evidence over an extended period of time and to assess the credibility of the various witnesses called upon to testify either by the Crown or by the defence.

The application made on behalf of your clients has been considered in detail. I have had the benefit of a review of the trial proceedings, reports of the interviews conducted with the applicants and others and Mick Lowe's book Conspiracy of Brothers. After a careful and thorough review of all these materials I have concluded that it would not be appropriate for me to intervene in this matter. I am satisfied that, on the basis of the evidence put before them at trial, the verdict of the jury remains fair and justified.

Yours sincerely,

Signed: A. Kim Campbell, P.C., Q.C., M.P.

To: Sandy Dupuis

Re: Sauve - Comeau Case

Dear Sandy:

Following our meeting, I have made inquiries to the Minister's office and through our former Justice critic Svend Robinson and current critic Ian Waddell.

Both M.P.'s are well aware of the case and have done considerable work on it, advocating a new trial.

In February, the Minister of Justice, Kim Campbell reviewed the case and rejected a new trial. While Mr. Sauve and Mr. comeau can appeal this Ministerial decision, I am told that the chances of winning are slim. I do not know if they will appeal or not.

Following the Minister's decision, we are left with very few avenues open to us but have put before the House of Commons a private member's motion again requesting a new trial. Please find the motion enclosed.

I regret I cannot bring you better news at this time, but can assure you that the New Democratic Party continues to be an advocate in this case.

Thank you for bringing it to my attention.

Sincerely,

Signed: Audrey McLaughlin, M.P. Yukon

Leader of the New Democratic Party.

Enc.

Thank you for your letter regarding the murder convictions of Rick Sauve, Gary Comeau, Merv Blakre, Larry Hurren and Jeff McLeod.

My predecessor as N.D.P. Justice critic Svend Robinson repeatedly called on the government to order a new trial in this case. He introduced a Private Member's Motion to that effect in the House of Commons.

It was with great disappointment that we learned that Justice Minister Kim Campbell had turned down a request for a new trial on December 10th. 1990. In so doing, she has ignored a body of evidence that suggests a miscarriage of justice in this casse.

It is my intention to introduce a new Private Member's motion on this case in the near future. Clearly, it will be necessary to keep this case in the public eye in hopes that one day we can obtain a new trial for Rick Sauve, Gary Comeau and the others. I encourage the Sauve-Comeau Defence Committee to continue its efforts in this regard.

Thank you very much for taking the time to write. Rest assured that I will keep you informed of any progress regarding this matter.

Yours sincerely,

Signed: Ian Waddell, M.P.

Port Moody/Coquitlam

To: Ms. Heather Milne

Dear Ms. Milne:

Thank you for sending me a copy of your letter to Kim Campbell, Minister of Justice, concerning your views on the case of Regina v. Matiyek involving Rick Sauve and Gary Comeau.

I have received a number of letters involving this case, and expressed my disappointment with the Minister's response which denies these men the possibility of a new trial. I am however interested in the response by the Minister to your letter and have written to her for a copy.

Once again, thank you for taking the time to share this with me.

Yours sincerely,

Signed: Christine Stewart, M.P.

Northumberland (Port Hope)

F.O.S. 949097A

d.o.b. Dec. 6, 1959

Q.: What can you tell me about the events that happened in the Queen's Hotel in Port Hope the night Bill Matiyek was killed?

I was originally from Toronto. I happened to be in Port Hope that evening selling stolen business equipment.

On that evening I was seated at a round table. Directly across from me was Susan Smith. To my right was a man from Port Hope whose name I cannot recall. To my left was seated Susan Smith's boyfriend. I do not recall his name either.

At the table behind me there were a number of individuals also seated at a round table. Seated to the north of the table behind me was the man who was shot. To his left was seated an individual I have later suspected to be Gary Comeau. The diagram below sets out the positioning as I recallect it.

I heard Susan Smith say "Oh my God!" She bent her head forward. That gave me the cue to look around at which time I saw two men in green Ontario Hydro parkas one on each side of another man who was holding what appeared to be a revolver. The man with the gun fired it. I recall 3 or 4 shots being fired.

A glass mug must have been hit because I recall a piece of glass travelling through my hair. The man who was killed fell forward and I was caught up in the rush to the exit.

At the exit I was knocked over by a person who I later learned was Gary Creelman.

I do not know the name of the person I saw with the gun. I have since met Gary Comeau at Warkworth Institution and I can state without reservation that the man who did the shooting was not Gary Comeau.

Signed: D.R.Racicot

Witness: J.K. C Hill

Sept. 21/91 - 8 p.m.

- somebody called John Hill "I was raped by Richard Price, Bill Lavoie and Dwight Boyle".

Jackie Lessard

d.o.b. Apr. 17/60

lives in Roseneath area.

Can be reached through 372-2195 (work) - ask for Marlene.

- she called previously.

"This happened in Ontario, the night of the fair a week before the murder. I did not know these people".

Has no information about Comeau.

Dwight Boyle said if she revealed it same thing would happen to me as is goind to happen to Matiyek. I didn't understand it at this time. I didn't know these people; I was 18 at the time. It went to trial and they were found innocent. I was the only one testifying against them 3. Everyone else was scared off.

I was given a name and I was raped. 5 other people severely beaten up. House was in Alderville.

Paul Simpson - lives in Alderville

Rod Gray - dead

Dean Gray - dead

Gord Falla - lived in Ennesmore

Harold Smoke - dead

Had gone to dance with Gord Falla and he is part Indian. He gave friend a ride home. We went into place - I think it was Paul Simpson's house but it has since burned down. Went in and had seen 3 Satan's Choice - Bill Lavoie, Richard Price and Dwight Boyle there. They fired off a sawed-off shotgun. I was the only woman there. They made all of us sit. Beat the Indian and forced sex on with her. All 3 had sex with me. Fired the gun off and said that was what Matiyek is going to get. Dwight Boyle wanted to abduct her.

I was in a mental state. When I read about Matiyek being killed I recognized the name and called my sister.

Testified at the rape trial but never testified at the murder trial.

I believe Gary Comeau has been set-up by his friends. I never went to the police with this information. I was told by Dwight Boyle and Bill Lavoie aht if I came forward I and my family would be killed.

Went to court on the rape trial about a year later. Went to court - prelin. in Cobourg in Feb. or March. Went to court in Toronto.

Sept. 24/91 - 5:10 p.m.

Smiley shot and killed Quinn at Queen's Hotel a few years prior. Smiley got about 3-4 years in prison. A drug related killing.

Blacky Sauve is well known in town. Sgt. McReelis went to his place on drug warrant and took nude picture of his wife. Showed them around town. He had to give Blacky a car to shut him up.

To most people in Port Hope this was personal vendetta to get Satan's Choice, which Blacky was. McReelis also upset when as a young cop he was told not to intervene. Not sure if Blacky is related to Rick Sauve.

Refuses to give name and phone number.

September 20 to October 10, 1991. We did a work-up on the Comeau/Sauve case including a precis reading of Mick Lowe's book "Conspiracy of Brothers", contacting Mick Lowe. Contacted Comeau's mother Betty King and Howard Kerbel (Kerbel wasn't much help at all). Also contacted Warren Allemand's office and spoke to Pat Zakaib she was supportive but we drew a blank on real info. There is a defence committee set up to raise funds for Comeau/Sauve and it was asked to send all available materials including media clippings, letters etc. Got copy of Kim Campbell's letter from her office.

October 10, 1991 Following a telephone conversation with John Hill I wrote to him and explained that we:

1) understood Campbell's political dilemma in the 690 plea for clemency; and

2) we would be willing to help in the gathering of new evidence.

Wednesday, October 16, 1991 Met with John Hill at the Holiday Inn in Toronto.

Established that he needed assistance interviewing respondents from an advertisement he placed in the local paper.

October 18, 1991 Had clerk Monica Munn come into the office and do a work-up on the case asking her to learn the file to date (clippings, letters etc.) Gave her batement week to get the book, study the case and try and find Don Avisson who was the official in Kim Campbell's office to hear a statement of Borne Campbell in Clay Ruby's office.

Established the following strategy for doing the overall work-up:

1) We want to infiltrate the "crowd" at the Bar in Port Hope where Bill Matiyek was killed. We need to learn what people are really thinking and saying about the whole affair and we want to earn the trust of the witnesses to find out which ones, if any, knowingly perjured themselves and what they really know. (ie.: Was Lorne Campbell truly at the bar or does anyone really know? What Makes local-yokel Copper Sam McReelis tick? Was he involved in fixing the whole thing and tampering with evidence, badgering witnesses etc.?) This will take time.

2) We at first want to establish O'Brien as a quiet type who occasionally hangs out at the bar. To make him a an `occasional' and not a regular makes it difficult for patrons and staff to pinpoint the exact time he began as a patron. His character will be neutral from the start and we will not use a name or ruse until the landscape has been fully surveyed. We consider renting a basement Apt. in Port Hope but that may not be needed.

3) we must also make connections into the OPP in London without alarming Terry Hall who O'Brien knows as an anti-biker zealot.

4) A guard who lives in Windsor. Marilyn Sinclair. 699 Charlotte Street. Windsor Ontario. N8X 3A6 Once wrote to Betty King. She believes Comeau and Sauve are innocent. SHe was interviewed by someone from Justice who was asking what we think were peculiar questions.

October 19, 1991 Called John Hill on the phone and confirmed that he needed:

1) "Proof of false testimony at original trial

2) proof of tampered evidence.

3) He confirmed that procedurally, it would be acceptable from the outset to use our sworn statements as a method of setting out evidence.

Need:- proof of false testimony at original trial. Proof of tampered evidence.

? - does the Jacket constitute proof if found or it's whereabouts or disposal traced -- a number of witnesses have said he was wearing a green parka

? - sworn statements by P.I. to attest to interviewer's statement, or statement of affidavit of witness.

? - name of cop who came forward as a result of the advert.

-- Susan Foote, she is the one who is married to... Susan Foote is the one who put it on Gary Comeau

-- other witnesses

? - The Walton* Venue is

-- There are some names of people, people who responded to the ad, and they say so-and-so was there.

October 19, 1991 Visited THE WALTON between 10:00 and 12:00 Pm. Took some plate numbers down and observed some persons who may have been long-time patrons of the bar. The Walton was, in 1978 at the time of the Matiyek murder, the Queens Hotel.

October 21, 1991 Asked Ray Ealey in Picton to get into Port Hope and begin attending at The Walton to learn if there are any `old-timers' hanging out at the bar who would know some of the folklore and just where the patrons and the staff of the bar stood in terms of loyalties toward Matiyek etc. Also to find out more about where the original witnesses had gotten to.

October 25, 1991

Visited THE WALTON between 7:00 and 8:30 pm wearing rough jeans and a nice sweater. Learned names of three employees. Mary behind bar and Sylvia and Linda who wait tables. Obtained the plate number of a vehicle I think is driven by Kathy Cotgrave. She is likely Peart having married Doug Peart. Also noted from local paper that the Port Hope police chief has been charged with assault but will still hold his job until trial. Outside the bar I got 5 plates including that of Sylvia D. Aselstine (waitress- ), 2 plates for Leo Powell, (Proprietor of The Walton, home-4 Silver Cres. Port Hope), Heather G. Patterson (529 Birkdale Street, Oshawa), and Frew Farms Limited.

October 26, 1991 [Checked with Ingersoll police and learned that David O'Neil had not been arrested in the Scott Rossiter murder case] Internally we have decided to keep a sharp eye for O'Neil while we are interviewing bikers et. al. on the Comeau/Sauve case.

October 26, 1991 7:04 PM Mick Lowe 705-969-7213 no answer as in repeated earlier attempts.

October 26, 1991 -- 8:00 PM Contacted Betty King

Gary was borne in 1952 and will be 40 in January. Carol Crosby is 41 borne in 1950. Gary Comeau is Betty's biological son, Carol is her biological daughter. One other son Eugene King (32 in November born in 1958) by her second marriage. Ron Losier is a good friend of Gary's who goes to see him. He is from Kitchener. Ron does not have a police record. Ron used to be a member of the Choice. Ron has his own business. "Gary got in with the wrong crowd. He didn't listen to his mother. I am not putting down bikers. There's good and bad." I don't know why they went to the Hotel. I didn't know Gary was shot until the policemen came to the house and told me. I came home from work one day in January and three police were in Gary's room. They said Gary had been shot that night. They said Gary had been shot. The police later in court denied that they had told Betty King that Gary had been shot.

They were searching for a Green Parka. Gary didn't have one but Eugene did. They looked at it examining the sleeves etc. "Sgt. McReelis and Inspector Cousins were in my house." I went down stairs to phone my daughter. McReelis said to me "lots of young fellas go out at night and don't tell their parents what they do but we think Gary was shot that night." They persisted in asking if there was blood on his clothing and on his sheets.

The lawyer asked me to find anything I could find to prove that Gary was right handed because the gunman was left handed.

I was asked do you think Gary knew that Matiyek would be shot.

"Would you sit at a table next to a person you knew was about to be shot?"

I only knew Jeff McLeod. He lives here in Scarborough. He is married to Beth.

Before Gary was ever arrested, McReelis was known as "Shotgun McReelis" he had a reputation.

Rick was from Port Hope so he knew all the people.

If you had intentions of killing someone, would you do it in a place where everyone knew you.

I asked her "Who talked to Campbell before he walked to the table."

In the '70s the bikers where the real bad guys but today the police have too many other things to worry about.

Tee Hee Hoffman came to the rally at Queen's Park.

After the shooting, Gary didn't come home for a few days. He was over at the Markham Road clubhouse when they arrested him.

Gary's jacket disappeared at the clubhouse.

Rick Sauve is retaining Elizabeth Thomas.

Gary has girl friends. There are a few that go to see him. They are just people who are on the mailing list.

Beth and Jeff met through prison life. Beth is a really nice person. They just bought a house.

Gary has said his biking days are over.

In the 1970s every day you picked up the paper somebody was arrested from a motorcycle club.

Did you ever see a police officer or other witness lie on the stand?

"McReelis did. He lied about telling me that Gary had been shot."

The lawyers had wanted to have Gary xrayed at the start. Finally they did and then they took him to the hospital. A forensic expert got on the stand and said that there was no way Gary could have been the gunman.

One of the jurors wrote Rick a letter.

One of the prison guards in London wrote me. She thought they were innocent. She also wrote the Justice Minister.

Who visited Gary the day after sentencing? Is a question that was put to the guard who wrote Justice Minister saying that she believed that Comeau and Sauve were innocent.

The guard lives in Windsor. Marilyn Sinclair. 699 Charlotte Street. Windsor Ontario. N8X 3A6

The first letter she wrote us a few years ago.

Terry Hall is training recruits out around London. A man on our list wrote us and said that.

When Steve Earl was in London for the concert there was a card in the dressing room from Terry Hall.

David Milgard is another case. He was in 22 years. His mother has been to Ottawa. Apparently this girl was raped and murdered but they found out since that a guy in the neighborhood that may have done it.

I wrote Kim Campbell last December 3. I didn't get a reply from her. I got a letter back in June 5 1991.

McReelis is having a fit in Port Hope. People have said McReelis is flipping out because of the renewed interest in the Comeau Sauve case.

We agreed to meet soon to go over the letters and other materials.

October 26, 1991 Arrived at The Walton at 11:45pm and left at 1:05am. A table was set up at the centre of the bar at which sat what appeared to be a group of bikers and their girl friends. Outside the bar I observed an unmarked unit on the prowl and then later stationed on Walton Street, opposite The Walton facing it and observing patrons departing the place. Plate was 615 FRZ, 1989 Chevy Caprice leased from Douglas Hillier Limited, 1024 Division St. North in Cobourg.

October 29, 1991 3:55 Contacted Douglas Hillier Limited in Cobourg. Hillier wasn't there. The female who answered the `ruse' (I said I was interested in bidding on the fleet of '89s when they came due for replacement) confirmed that Hillier leased vehicles to the police.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mick Lowe

A lady wrote to say that her sister had been raped. She said she had heard that the Satan's Choice had spoken words to the effect that they had to "do" Matiyek.

- Withholding of tapes from the wiretap of the Kitchener/Waterloo Clubhouse. Who is culpable?

- The most fruitful line of enquiry. Gillespie. The "fact fucker" statement was given to police to Wilson or McReelis. Gillespie has been threatening to sue Mick Lowe. Gillespie was supposed to be a live witness but he was not at the lineup.

- Don Avisson was asked to interview Gillespie.

- The police notes taken during the photo array. They disappeared.

- Nig Castonette was a person shown the photo-lineup.

- Did Gillespie have a police record? Was he helped by police?

- Gillespie may have been under court order to stay away from the bar.

- Who talked to Campbell before he walked over to the table of Bill Matiyek.

- Who was the person mistaken for David Hoffman.

- Interview Bobby Cousins. He is the guy who set up the meeting with Hall.

- Interview Sonny Bronson and Fred Jones.

- Comeau will not play the system's game.

- Comeau is still emotionaly immature and self-centered.

- Comeau is manic.

- Comeau is the stubborn one.

People were fascinated with the Terry Hall character in the book.

He has a real reputation within the force. Hall is a crazy man. Hall doesn't want his past dredged up. Terry Hall has been rehabilitated. He is an inspector. Every wrongful conviction of murder turns out that the mental process with the cops causes them to pursue a conviction at any cost.

Cousins thinks that Comeau was the gunman. He thinks the bullet ricocheted around the room.

Scratch a biker and you find a cop.

- If Gary is right that they knew he was shot, who told them that he had been shot.

- Bobby Cousin's phoned Rick Sauve and Merv and asked him to attend at a the Cobourg Motor Inn. Hall was picking up the tab. - The bikers don't want to pursue this stuff.

- Bill Lavoie just outside of Peterborough in Warsaw. He was helpful in preparing the book. He has no direct knowledge.

- Lorne Campbell had a perjury charge. He was testifying under protection. Sue Foote didn't see Campbell in the Hotel.

- Mick Lowe

- Sue Foote married Doug Peart (Sic)

- Gail Thomson was a Crown witness. She is now in B.C.

- Cathy Cotgrave was set up to meet with Mick Lowe.

- Mick's friend in Toronto knew Rod Stewart.

- Sue Foote said that she had an intimate relationship with Lorne Campbell.

- Never talked to Jamie Hanna. She was in some housing development in Port Perry area. She was the one who claims to have been intimidated by Bobby Cousins.

- Who was intimidating the witnesses?

- Roger Davie gave a sworn affidavit saying that his wife took the call from Rick asking him to call in sick for work the next day. It was two in the morning and his wife (Mrs. Davie) answered the phone.

- Roger took the stand and he said he took the call. Roger was intimidated. Cops said we know Sauve called your house. Roger played dumb and the cops said you are in for accessory after the fact. Roger said there was loud music in the background of Sauve's call. On the stand: "Loud Music that sounded like a party so I asked him where is the party." Roger Davie never spoke to Rick Sauve

- Inspector Cousins was the titular head of the investigation. McReelis was the lead in Port Hope. Terry Hall was the biker intelligence guy.

- Cathy Cotgrave was a friend of Bill Matiyek. She hated the choice.

- Cotgrave, Foote, Gail Thomson, were regulars.

- Between the rape and the altercation that had been started at the Indian reserve, the townspeople hated the Choice.

- There was no special reason for anyone to focus on the table prior to the shooting.

- No one in the room really saw the actual event except maybe one waitress.

- "I think Chris Meinhart believed Lorne Campbell." The desire to win was overwhelming. The cross-examination was masterful.

- The trigger man was the centre piece of the defence's case. The two star witnesses said Comeau was the gunman.

- The Crown argued that irrespective of who was the triggerman they are all guilty.

- The biker's recollection of events overlapped. The contrarian view came from Gillespie.

- People saw the whole thing as people doing things severally not collectively.

- Rod Stewart claims he saw a horseshoe of people around Matiyek.

- The real enmity wasn't toward Matiyek but toward the two Outlaws, Fred Jones and Sonny Bronson.

- Armand Sanguigni was at the Bar with Jones. Why would a pro like Sanguigni be at the Bar if he knew a murder would go down.

- The attendance was ad hoc.

- Mick Lowe met Inspector Colin Cousins and Terry Hall at the 401 and Keele facility.

- Bernie Guindon helped with the book.

- The rape that took place just before the Matiyek killing involved Bill Lavoie. The event took place in Port Hope.

- Mick Was at the bar in Port Hope early in 1985-1986.

- Mick got a call from one of Matiyek's cousin taking issue with some of the tertiary things about Bill Matiyek.

- Lawrence Leon showed Mick Bill's sawed-off shotgun. Lawrence knew there was bad blood but never thought it would have led to murder.

- Lawrence said the first time he ever went in to the police station there were a lot of Biker squad guys there.

- Roger Davie deliberately perjured himself during the trial.

- Mick thinks Gillespie perjured himself deliberately. He was a major crown witness. He thinks the cops had something on him.

- Mick took Roger into Affleck's office to swear a statement admitting to perjury. The affidavit said he was badgered into perjury.

- Mick interviewed the trial judge, Osbourne. Osbourne had little sympathy for Kerbel and his client for switching strategy.

- Affleck has said they could have been convicted on the evidence but the conviction was morally wrong.

- Don Avisson was the one who initiated the whole 690 clemency appeal. Don Avisson interviewed Lorne. Avisson believed Lorne.

Called John Hill's office. He is out of the country but next week will be coming to Toronto. I talked to the billing clerk in his office. She put me on to Maureen, Hill's secretary. She says that Bill Wyatt, the former Mayor of Port Hope was Leo Powell's best friend. She said that Powell was always slow at paying his taxes to the town. She used to work for the town. She will give John Hill the message and ask him to call me.

Ray Ealey Called to report on his visit to The Walton.

Ray Ealey went to the Walton on October 29, 1991. I had asked him to find the old guy who was in the bar at the time of the Matiyek murder.

On the telephone he gave me the following statement:

RAY EALEY: Arrived 11:00am and looked around the place. There is a little restaurant there. I went for bacon and eggs.

I met Eric Patterson, Carpenter, a man who used to live in the Maritimes but who came to Port Hope in 1979. He is about 35, has rotten teeth, 6-ft tall and skinny thin features, no down east accent. He was a biker at one time. He moved to town in 1979. He told me about one old guy who comes in the bar on a regular basis.

Leo Powell (59 Heavy-build, Jewish) came in and sat down. His wife's name is Julie, married ten years ago. Leo and Julie Powell have one child of 9 years of age. There is 20 years difference in their age. He coaches football at Trinity. Leo Powell was having a bowl of soup. He wasn't talkative. He finished his soup then took some money out of the till and headed for the kitchen and was making arrangements for the "go-go" dancer girls who were expected around 4:00pm.

There is a guy named Stan, toothless, the swabber around the place who cleans the floors etcetera, scruffy looking guy. This Stan guy was trying to find everything about me. He was curious about me. We talked about houses for sale.

The old man in the bar at the time of the Matiyek death was "Cap" Hunter (he never took his hat off). He used to organize the hockey pools. He always ordered two beers. He died 2-3 years ago.

Carol Hunter is his wife. She is alive. She is in her seventies. She is a white haired old gal. We talked for two hours. Her son used to "live with the [Satan's] Choice for two years". He lost an arm in a car accident. I told her I was looking to return back here to live. I told her I was in construction and that I had lost my family. She opened up to me.

In the ensuing conversation she brought up the subject of the Bill Matiyek murder. She said "There was a murder here. A guy got shot. He was shot three times. They got the guys that did it -- they were from the Satan's Choice. He was just 22. Some of the girls who were witnesses left town out of fear. They were afraid of the Choice."

She says the whole town has a lot of dope floating around. She says the cops raid people's homes without any notice. They just bust in.

She says the murder is something the people in the town want to forget. There was a book written about it. She said the book was in the library. She said that "they" wanted to know who I was. She meant the people hanging out and working at the Hotel.

She sounded off about her daughter. (Julie Joncas, Carol Hunter's daughter is the wife of Leo Powell. Carol Hunter was married in Montreal when she had Julie. The marriage to "Cap" Hunter was her second.) Julie is 39. "She works her ass off," says her mother. She gets no thanks for it. Carol Hunter says Julie is about to run away from Powell but Powell has pleaded that she stay around until his parents are passed away. He also threatens to gain custody of the child (9 year-old). Carol Hunter is pissed off with this Powell. She is quite bitter and looks forward to the day when her daughter leaves him.

Julie had just decorated the joint for Halloween. She works hard at the bar. I did not see her while I was there.

Carol Hunter says "Dormen" (spelling unknown) brothers and someone by the name of Kelly once owned the Hotel.

When Carol Hunter's son was in hospital the Satan's Choice bikers were bringing him marijuana, she says. She says the town of Port Hope is full of under-cover people trying to bust people for drug-related offenses ("dope" she says). There is a guy who lives in the Hotel who is a dopey. The Satan's Choice are not allowed in Port Hope because of the murder.

Julie and Leo Powell on the night of the murder found the telephones to be busy and therefore left the bar to fetch police.

She maintains the town is filled with undercover people. I gave her a hint that I had been in construction, had been a drinker. My Wife, I told her was deceased. I talked about facilities for seniors.

Carol Hunter told me about Katie, an old girl who was there sitting in the corner. She is a stoolie for the police says Carol Hunter.

---------------------------------------------------

END OF RAY EALEY'S STATEMENT -- end of call 7:15 AM

November 2, Port Hope - 12:30 - 13:30 hrs.

Susan Marie Foote, Philip James Foote, 28 Sullivan St., Port Hope.

Don Gillespie, 80 Dorset St. Apt. 2.

(Elector's List).

At the Walton 7:30 p.m

Linda is my regular waitress. Sylvia has the long dark hair and is slim Clarence is the bartender.

The Walton - Nov.2/91 - Rear Parking Lot.

? 376 CRJ

411 K22 -Sylvia

? 842 NFK

014 LHP-Powell

550 EK2-Powell

? 007 JHT

4 Silver Cres. - Powell's home, runs off Victoria St. North opposite Freeman Drive. Plates: 014 LHP - Powell, ? 749 LHZ, 550 EKZ - Powell.

Back in Toronto l0:30 p.m.

November 4 - Called Elizabeth Thomas - left message. Finally heard from her. Set up meeting.

Sauve/Frontenac - l04 Johnson Street, 2nd. floor, Wednesday 14th. 2:30 (613) 531-26560

She said:

- The Campbell response: I don't think it is responsive. She came back with Comeau as gunman. I'm not surprised that Campbell ...

November 8, Comeau/Sauve

Spoke with "Cathy Crosby" and Betty King at Betty King's home. 8:00 pm to 9:15 am. Crosby is not her real name, she is cagey, she knows more than she is saying. Says Lorne Campbell is in jail - got 3 years for conspiracy to traffic in cocaine. She is interesting. She knows that Campbell talked to someone before he shot Matiyek. Mrs. King is a very nice lady, home is very tidy, well kept. I warned her about listening devices -- overall we just chatted.

November 12

Elizabeth Thomas called to say that she has seen Rick Sauve since our last phone conversaion. Sauve wants to meet me before I meet with Thomas.

-Rick Sauve wonders..

-25

-Frontenac (613)545-8598 - medium security.

November 12 Rick Sauve called at 12:40 returning my call.

We have arranged a meeting for Friday the 15th. at 1:00 p.m. at Frontenac prison (Medium). Frontenac is (613) 545-8603 and is reached by asking for Frontenac.

Nov. 12, 12:30 p.m.

Attempted calling John Hill at 416-372-9381, busy.

Nov. 12 - 1:55 p.m. reached his office and left a message regarding the individuals who responded to advertisement in Cobourg newspaper and asking for names.

(399-9434)

November 14 John Hill

Polygraph - proved that Comeau didn't shoot Matiyek.

Jamie Hanna can say that Comeau sat with her.

November 15, Frontenac -- Kingston, Ontario Meeting with Rick Sauve

- Brian Brideau - didn't appear or stand

- Bobbie Cousins; talked to someone who knew Bobbie Cousins who was given preferential treatment. Cousins was in P.Q. with Gord Van Harlem at time of shooting.

- Helen Mitchell, she was one who was claiming harassment (she wasn't in the bar).

- Don Avisson seemed interested in having a new trial.

EVIDENCE:

1. Was gun dusted for prints?

Comeau was hit by a bullet that grazed Matiyek's arm, picked up some fibres.

2. Was Toronto Chapter's phones wired?

The wire taps would show that there was no prior plan to murder Matiyek.

GILLESPIE;

Gillespie was an aquaintance of Rick's not a great friend but an aquaintance. Rick was talking to Gillespie at the time about motorcycle parts. Rick said to Merv "I think I'll go see what the fat fucker wants." Gillespie was caught doing an insurance scam on his Sporty; people have turned for a lot less. Was a fraud charge laid?

Supreme Court Ruling on the evidence.

Gillespie made these statements. First statement and second statement.

"Nutty never came over to my table".

SAUVE'S PRIORITIES

1. Release of Avisson's report.

2. Susan Foote

3. Lawrence Leon

4. Two unknown witnesses with Rod Stewart, one's name was Peter. Stewart says these witnesses saw something different.

5. Lorne Campbell

Between Port Hope and Cobourg.

April 1, 1978 - so called party when Sauve set up Coppers

Club house was across the road from Sam McReelis. (later learned copper was Gary Woods "Woody")

Susan Foote - a big mouth, she likes to talk. Susan Foote and Cathy Cotgrave lived together - two eyes different colour - she hung around the club, she'd get beers, she knew Merv's wife. Merv is in Alderville. She is heavy built dirty blonde, she worked at Credit Union.

? How did:

- Sue Foote says Lorne gave her the ring she had - she never dated Lorne. She hated Gordie Van Harlam, Rick hung around with Gordie.

SAUVE: "When I called Toronto nobody was coming" First thing into the hotel, they talked to Bronson and Jones. Bill Matiyek and Rick Sauve's older brother were almost best friends.

November 15 - Ealey

Talked to Ray Ealey, he was in Port Hope on Tuesday. He met with Carol Hunter, she is the daughter of "Cap" Hunter, not wife of. "Cap" Hunter saw nothing. Ray has been asking questions of other people.

November 16, 1991 1-705-924-2210 - Warkworth Prison - Gary Comeau

Left a message for him to call me Nov. 16, 12:24 p.m.

- Gary Comeau phoned - we want to arrange talks

- Gary suggests we contact Maureen.

- Roy Rittwage, at Warkworth - Institutional Security Officer head of security, phone him

- Maureen has a good repertoire, should take two or three days, everybody has to go through security.

- Next Friday Gary has a trailer visit. Thursday at 1:30 p.m - 13:00 hrs.

Interview 13:00 hrs. - Nov. 21st., an interview room is booked.

Letter to: Miss Elizabeth Thomas

P.O. Box 1922

104 Johnson Street

Kingston, Ontario

K7L 5J8

«FC»Re: Richard Sauvé

«FL»

Dear Miss Thomas:

We offer our assistance to you to do the investigative leg work involved in gathering new evidence to support your goal of a retrial for your client. Should you decide you would like to make use of our talents, within reasonable restraints we will donate our time and reasonable costs without fee or reimbursement.

I want to thank you for your suggestion that I meet with Mr. Sauvé before discussing the matter with you. I met with him last Friday, November 15. at 1:00pm. During the three hours of our meeting I learned what Rick feels are high priority steps for an investigation.

Mr. Sauvé has explained to me that he sees two essential parts to an investigation being:

1) obtaining a copy of a Ministerial Briefing report filed by a senior official working for the current Minister of Justice during the fall of 1990, or, failing that, an interview of this person leading to a statement about the contents of the report. (We know of this person and have located the subject.)

2) interviews of four key witnesses, two of whom gave evidence at the original trial and have been named for us by Mr. Sauvé, and two of whom are unknown to Mr. Sauvé except by general description.

Upon receiving your consent we will begin the investigation on your behalf.

Yours sincerely;

Micheal O'Brien

Private Investigator

November 21, 1991, 13:00 to 16:00 hrs.

Gary Comeau, Warkworth.

Learn Comeau's key priorities. Truth about Campbell, why not talk to Charmaine.

Murder One -- not conspiracy.

For Comeau -- Will the truth help you? or hurt you? (Never asked question)

COMEAU'S PRIORITIES:

1. We need the wire taps from October 18. A two storey house with a basement on Markham Rd. 1st. house on right.

2. Rod Stewart's two friends.

3. Find the witness who said it was a dark haired man.

Lawrence Leon had car shot up, received a cryptic letter.

Cotgrave and Gail Thompson ID'd Comeau as the gunman.

Somebody phoned Charmaine Campbell saying they were John Hill, Monday or Tuesday!

Hall and McReelis talked to Wilkeson of the Peterborough Examiner. "There were 50-60 people in the hotel when the bikers came in." "Yes we can get two members to say Mr. X was there in the bar."

On October 18, 1978 when Sauve called the clubhouse on Markham Rd. Comeau said "find your own fucking guys, if you can't find your own phone me back". Comeau is concealing the names of the six or seven guys who were never reached, they were SCMC and never accused. They could confirm the gunman.

The Jacket: at the back of the collar the label had a little racer on a motorcycle, blue lining.

McReelis, Cousins and Hall were in the clubouse.

November 21, 1991, 5:00 p.m. - John Hill's office:

Witnesses: Debbie in Cobourg, Bank of Montreal Cobourg Don Beaulne was a Loans Manager type at the Bank of Montreal, Cobourg. Call B of M get forwarding address, call him and ask about Debbie.

Mike Painter.

Says Hill: Officer Bill Wakely - cop, was first on scene at hotel on October 18, 1978. (Not true.)

Don Beaulne lives in Oakville - early thirties Mike Painter.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Letter to John Hill (not sent):-

Comeau is hiding "6 - 7 people" (members) who were never identified as being at the Queen's - someone called Charmaine Campbell? Comeau wanted to control the "Game Plan" i.e. evidence must prove his hypothesis. Comeau is saying that none of the parties will talk to me. Comeau is saying Campbell will not talk to me. Comeau wants to be in the drivers seat. Comeau is a lousy witness, eye contact is poor, shifty, etc. Sauve -- eye contact is good, strong empathy, asked him many times if there was something going on that others had kept from him? He says no. Sauve is very bright, Comeau is not!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

18:30 - dropped into the Walton and had couple of drinks, talked to two witnesses, Linda (heavy sad eyes) and Mary (long nose). Julie Powell is smiles and flirtatious(?) I am alone, watching pool game on TVN discussing it with Linda. Linda, Mary and Julie are all beginning to recogize me and treat me as a regular. I was dressed in shirt slacks and suspenders, instead of jeans and sweater and drank Scotch/soda for first time. Normally drink Carlsberg Light

or Regular. A few of the regular patrons are getting used to seeing me. Still no explanation made as to who I am and none has been asked of me. Leo Powell is around and is his same self, arguing with Julie over (?) and slithering here and there in the Walton. Checked out the "John" the inscription I added to the West stall's graffiti is still there, top left side of door.

Nov. 22, 1991 -- Called Elizabeth Thomas, 613-531-2660

Nov. 24 - Port Hope 4:46 - Howard Woodner 989 EHL

Debbie Sunday, waitress at Walton Restaurant.

Janet and Dean McIntosh, also Duke is a friend of Dean's. Dean lived in California in l965. He is 46, says he fought in 'Nam. Howard Woodner was 17 in l976. He was on a school trip to North Battleford etc. and stayed there to work on a farm. He lives near Welcome with Jackie who is his common-law wife. Jackie has three kids aged 12,10,8. He used to work in construction but lost is job. They now grow food and raise chickens and barter for things they need. I went with them to Pickens near Welcome which is roughly at Hwy. 28 and Hwy.2. Howard is 6'3" about 23 yrs. old and is not well liked around Welcome.

Gail Doyle -- works at Dover Seafood House on Hwy.2 in Port Hope. (416-885-7340) Her son-in-law is Brian Babcock who was the president of the Port Hope chapter of the Satan's Choice Motorcycle Club. She says the guy who took the Canada Evidence Act was the gunman. She says Cathy Peart was paid $10,000.00 to lie for the Police. Other people were paid off, some more, some less. Cathy Peart told Gail Doyle to her face that she was paid off by the police. She also says it was a pre-planned murder. She emphatically believes that Campbell was the gunman. She has agreed to help me in the investigation. She says that Cathy Peart bought her husband a keyboard for his band. He (Doug) played in a band. She believes the guys now in jail will eventually come out. She says that Matiyek shot up the SCMC Clubhouse and as well shot up Sauve's house. She worked for the Queens/Walton for 12 years. She was a waitress at the time of the Matiyek shooting. She had been in to get her pay check and had talked to Matiyek fifteen minutes before Matiyek was shot.

Howard in Hill's office, 416-404-1998 (home) 416-372-9381.

- through Oshawa, Harmony Exit, North on Harmony to Rossland, left on Rossland Adersley -first right off Rossland - 745 Bennett Cres. On November 27, 1991 Howard called the office left messsage, I called him back. He was forthright about some of his concerns. He is suspicious about why we want to work on the case. He was told by Derek Blackman that I was a right-winger who would not likely be inclined to go against the police evidence. Blackburn said I was working for CSIS or RCMP. Howard is afraid. He wants a meeting. I agreed to meet him and did at his home. I arrived at 7:38 and left shortly after 11:00 p.m. I told him about the precidence we hoped to achieve with the case and that we expected to be paid if our work was successful.

6:30 p.m. Left Toronto to visit Howard and John Hill at Howard's house in Oshawa. I responded to Howard's call accusing me of working for RCMP. - 11:30 - left Howard's place - during our meeting I attempted to set aside concerns he had for the security of the investigation. Howard and John seemed somewhat relieved but held out reservations. They still seem to think we are working for RCMP. - they have set up some kind of amateur case which they say could yield some results.

November 29, 6:44 p.m. Called Donald Avisson 403-920-8564.

He is gone for the week end but will be back on Monday.

File Notes:

The Crown's theory was that the members of SCMC who entered the Queen's Hotel with the collective intention of causing Matiyek's death or serious injury. Our theory is that none of the members were aware of any plot to kill Matiyek. SAUVE may have been aware of certain local enmity toward Matiyek but he was going to the Queen's Hotel, he believed, to address the antogonisms of a bunch of outlaws. They did not enter the Queen's for an execution. We think Comeau is taking a bum rap and that the set-up is deliberate. We believe that the disparity over choice of counsel is a result of the situation. Comeau knew Sauve before Oct. 18, 1978. He rode with him on one occasion. He regarded Sauve as a "greenhorn".

December 1. 5:30 - Comeau/Sauve interview with Mick Lowe.

spoke to Mick Lowe on phone, planted 2 ideas with him:

l. that witnesses were paid

2. that we prosecute those who paid witnesses.

Notes are in file. Let's see where it gets to. He says McLeod contacted him asking to get a transcript for our purposes.

Sauve knew the bar and knew people there, Mick says, a couple of people including one relative of Sauve, they heard something happened. Bar licenced for 220 at time. Statement of Racicot put three men. There were two cars which left Toronto, at least two. Try Jeff McLeod, he may tell us which car Lorne Campbell was in. There was no love lost between McLeod and Campbell. Jeff McLeod called to try and get a set of trial transcripts. "I have tried to get the six or seven to come forward". They all believe they will be charged with second degree murder. Campbell seems genuine, says Mick Lowe, Lorne was a kind of babysitter. Once you're his friend he is constantly looking out for you. The Catcher in the Rye.

- Don Avisson

- Terry O'Hara said they don't want Campbell. They'd open a can or worms.

- They used Sue Foote.

- Wire in Toronto Club house

- Gillespie

- Merv Blaker is unimportant

Mick Lowe thinks that Comeau made the "Fat Fucker" statement, (but Sauve clearly told me that it was him who made the fat fucker statement).

- Neil Harten or Horton. Didn't see anything Mgr. asked him to leave.

- Rolly Sauve gave Mick # 613-478-3222

- knows one of 6 or 7 for certain, a second who is suspected and third who looks like Hoffman.

- Elizabeth Thomas was the first really good lawyer to come back on the scene.

- Prison authorities thought that Comeau was the gunman.

- Gene King, father of Gary Comeau says there is no way Comeau, for all his faults, is a killer.

- Phone call from Port Hope to Toronto set things in motion. Sauve set things in motion with his phone call.

- Mac Haig went to see Terry Hall - Hall told Haig to check out Levine he wrote a book about the Hell's Angels; it was pro - prior to one of the raids in Richmond Hill, a (?) girl who had been raped, that was the reason for the raid.

- Cousins insisted that Comeau was the gunman

- Cousins was a straight-shooter. He thought bikers would be good infantrymen.

- Cousins says he has never been told to fuck off so many times in his life as he was on the Comeau investigation.

- Cousins had a heart attack during investigation.

- he thought McReelis was a good cop.

- Cousins admitted seeing the wound on Comeau.

Mick called Port Hope Police, Mick says he was telling the biker's point of view.

- Gillespie called from Calgary and said he could sue and would come and see.

- Gillespie was shown a later photo line-up.

- Gillespie saw Comeau in the Black Jacket

- Gillespie gave a statement of...

(?) Sauve has never been to visit Rick

(?) knew the locals

" Of all the people to give the gun to" "they knew they were going up against the Outlaws".

- Lorne's record - enforcer and debt collector

- Lorne was not adverse to violence

- someone said "Why didn't he just give it to him in the knees"

- There were strikers at Rick Sauve's place, these strikers were from Toronto. Rick couldn't find anyone but Merv.

- Avisson said there was a (?) between Sauve/Merv, were atypical.

- McLeod and Blaker we should pursue, says Mick, have idea who was there

- was there a test for drugs?

Joe Bastos - Works in Terry O'Hara's office as partner.

Remembered might have known about witnesses. Timely disclosure was impossible. Joe was making trips to Cobourg. Several people were changing their minds witnesses were really scared. Cops had got to some witnesses "we became paranoid that our phones were tapped". A call would come from London, Terry Hall never claimed to play fair. Blaker would have got off if he had testified. There was a bit of animosity among the defence counsels. What was he hiding? Toronto lawyers wanted solidarity in staying off the stand. Some defence counsel alienated the jury. Bronson and Jones were interviewed by Terry, Bronson is from Kingston. Source was a man they called Brick(?). Bastos talked about Blaker. The group jerked around for a long time before producing the gunman. Finally Campbell was brought forward, he was a real space cadet, he was always stoned. Thinks Sanguigni might have been gunman. Doesn't think the Crown has anything. If the Crown knew the other guys they would have brought it up. There was contempt for the PQ SCMC from the Toronto SCMC. The Toronto guys had nothing for the likes of Bill Matiyek. They didn't know him nor care about him.

McLeod was like a vicious dog on a leash, McLeod was capable. He was a surly, vicious bastard. He was a leader or at least had the potential. He was seen as an enforcer. He was instrumental in getting things done his way. McLeod was a leader in meetings. McLeod drove the ship, he also had the whip. McLeod was quite capable of using his fists. McLeod had brawn Hoffman had brains. Kerbel may know who was the real gunman. Doesn't think Campbell was shooter. Kerbel was being paid under the table by the Choice. Howard Kerbel screwed up a case in Kingston. Lost case for woman who had a bargain on manslaughter. Kerbel doesn't like O'Hara. Kerbel had a strange operation - just one secretary. Grossman was in the office working separately. Somebody in the Choice in Toronto was running things (done through Kerbel) Kerbel was McLeod's lawyer. There was a real cloak and dagger op. on who was running show. Kerbel never used the singular, it was; I have instructions from "them" that... Kerbel got funds from Toronto. O'Hara, Affleck, Epp (now a judge) had no contact with the Club. Kerbel and David Newman were the "in" counsel. Hoffman - very bright, looks are deceiving. He was totally committed to the Choice. Good background. Susan Foote made good impression on jury. Witnesses were not credible otherwise. Couldn't get testimony from witnesses. Telecons were interesting but in-person were hopeless. People had to be tracked down overnight during trial. None of the witnesses really made an impression on Joe. McLeod was the most noticeable among the accused. Kerbel was flashy, not smooth. Jewelry, cars, women, him and Newman. Davey was levered by McReelis, he lied on the stand. Cotgrave and Foote may have heard threats but nothing the cops couldn't handle.

Bill Lavoie was committed to the Choice, not part of the in-crowd. Bobbie Cousins is a joke. Way down the evolution ladder. Cousins may have helped the cops out of stupidity. Bobbie Cousins allegedly intimidated witnesses thinking he was helping out. McLeod was street smart, well honed survival instincts. Never met Bernie Guindon. The "Free Bernie" campaign was underway at the time of the trial. "Mother" was in control then, Garnet McKewen (? in Outlaws). Has someone done any serious talking since the conviction. Joe thinks witness tampering is the best and only attack under 690. Witnesses are losers. Witnesses were told, these are your lines, remember them. Judge came as close as could be to telling the jury to acquit. Choice was banned from bar. Blaker wasn't. Pointed out that Blaker should eventually sue on a Civil Rights theme.

Conversation with Larry Hall - Port Hope - Dec. 11/91, Ray Ealey. Taped

A: I wonder where she is now, she was an employee of the Credit Union, quite a stout and unfortunately somewhat homely, she was with Matiyek the night that he was shot and she moved aside in fact, apparently according to the testimony, you probably read her name, Matiyek told her to get out of the way, I wonder where she is right now.... I could make this phone call and try, because that's someone you should at least try, whether or not she'll say anything I don't know.

Ray: I read something in the bibliography ...like to ask that question too because its a touchy subject.

A.: Yes, it's a touchy subject -- she's not there, I have an idea she's not in Port Hope because I haven't seen her in quite some time and she may have got married and moved or something, I don't know. Ask me specific questions Ray because I don't know where you want to start.

Ray: What they're looking for is anyone or anything visual that happened that was not brought up that they can sort of grasp and work on for this thing?

A.: OK, it depends on, there's a lot more to this than just the shooting and of course anything has a background to it and I related to you the other night the lack of leadership in the Port Hope police department at the time plays in it also. The fact remains, its general knowledge that the guys sent to jail for 25 years didn't do it....and a plan too to at least intimidate Matiyek to my knowledge and this is strictly rumour mill that I'm telling you, and the guy that actually did the shooting, rumoured to be a guy named Campbell as you know, your aware of that, anyway he wasn't really apparently in on the conspiracy at all he just panicked, he happened to be carrying a weapon, now whether he habitually carried a weapon I don't know, he's in Saskatchewan right now so I've heard, have you heard where Campbell is?

Ray: No

A.: Well I believe he's out in Saskatchewan the last I heard of him, it was fairly recently I was asking, or the subject was brought up. I really can't be much help to give you specific names. Now this young woman Foote, I forget her first name, it'll be in the bibligraphy of the book anyway, if you could find her and get her to talk to you, she was right there, of course if she wouldn't talk at the trial or wouldn't talk you know at that time I don't see why she'd talk now, but that's not up to me to decide that's up to you guys.

Ray: Yea

A.: Another one you'd pay to talk to is whether or not you'd like it or not, Leo Powell and his wife, somebody has to talk to them because why did the two of them leave the hotel and both go down to the police station that night and the other one is the other .. Sue Foote, I guess that's it then.

Ray: Yes, Sue Foote.

A.: Now the other thing is find out the name of the then partner that Leo Powell had in the ownership of the hotel, I can't remember his name now, he's probably listed in that book there, he was charged with supplying a fire-arm or something, he was probably the guy who leant Matiyek a hand gun and he was a co-owner of the hotel, I think he's back in Toronto now and probably still has an association with Powell, but you should talk to him again about why did he lend Matiyek the hand gun ahead of time, I mean what was Matiyek scared of, why was he scared and who was he scared of. You know, he might have been told, I mean Matiyek wasn't too swift, he'd done a lot of talking. Just ask some more questions.

Ray: For instance what did you see in Port Hope sort of leading up to this thing, you were talking to me on the phone the other day about - burning down - moving out and ...

A.: Satan's Choice had been active in Port Hope for approximately two years prior to the Matiyek shooting, now mind you bear in mind that they had been active all over Southern Ontario at that time too, they were getting to be a real problem and the police all over Ontario had not been able to influence, coerce these guys, you know to frighten them and they were starting to control, they were creating some real tensions among young people in Port Hope and having a weak Police Chief, Arthur O'Neil in Port Hope at the time, they were getting away with a lot of intimidation here on the main street among the young people. I wouldn't know if they were running drugs or not, I don't know, but they had a rented house out here on the North, well actually it's in the township of Hope just immediately adjacent to the Port Hope boundary and it's now Jocelyn Street, it was an old brick building. They rented it by the simple expendient of having a well dressed young guy approach the owner who was an absentee owner living in Toronto, he wanted to rent the house, so he rented it to this good looking young guy then found out to his horror a little later on that it was the Satan's Choice boys complete with their watch-dogs that had the house, by that time he couldn't do much about it. So they were renting this virtual headquarters just on the Port Hope north-west boundary and during that period there was a fire that destroyed a motorcycle repair shop operated by another motorcycle gang, you mentioned the name

Ray: Outlaws

A.: Outlaws or Golden Rider one or the other, something like this in Cobourg and you might enquire, if you want to look into that part, if there were any arrests on that, I don't think there was. You could get the Cobourg police to look up the occurance on that, it would be about, when did this happen.

Ray: That was the Golden Hawk Riders.

A.: Golden Hawk was it OK, they had this motorcycle shop it was burned down, it was arson and Matiyek of course was a member of the Golden Hawks. What really I think caused the problem was the fact that before Matiyek was shot he had apparently beaten-up a lone member of Satan's Choice, the same night who had then gone out and got a bunch of his friends, presumably from Bowmanville that came back here and late at night they got him in the Queen's. Matiyek had been drinking, now that may not be too acurate because I may be getting that mixed up with another shooting they had perpetrated earlier. About a year or year and a half earlier than that they had shot a man, Swampy Swails, in the Ganaraska Hotel, they shot him in the leg, and that was Pigpen Barry from Peterborough and some of the boys. This is an illustration, burning two buildings and two shootings from Satan's Choice plus general intimidation, leading up to this situation. Now the police were caught in an awkward situation, they had to do something and they had to appear to do something and they couldn't of course let the public think that they were going to let Satan's Choice away with killing a man right in the hotel here in downtown Port Hope. There was a certain degree of motivation perhaps there. Now the role of Sgt. McReelis I can't define for you, he was, I think there is something you should look up and try to investigate, firstly ask who was the officer who was initially on the scene. Usually an officer who first reaches the scene of a crime or the senior officer on that shift takes on the investigation of that crime quite often, in this case that did not happen, the responsibility was moved from that officer to come to rest with McReelis and where was the CIB the criminal investigation branch of the O.P.P. involved in all of this, what role did they play? Usually they play a very dominant role, they didn't seem to play as dominant role as one might expect. Manouvering in other words went on within the police authority to investigate this and basically I can't think of much else. Any

more questions?

Ray: Yes, you mentioned about this sargeant, McReelis, shot-gun Sam?

A.: Oh yes Shot-gun Sam is a common nick-name for him. That came quite a few years later when Art O'Neil retired and Shot-gun Sam there was some indication he wanted to be the Police Chief but the town hired out of town, but now one of the sensitive things this brings up is that there is a possibility that the present Police Chief may have to forfeit his job, his name is Hoath, because he's up on an assault charge involving his wife and his girl-friend, if he's convicted on this assault charge there's a question whether or not he can retain his job so the town has to look for another police chief and the same controversy may arise again, McReelis is now an Inspector and he might again be in line for the police chief's job in Port Hope, now of course the re-surfacing of this Matiyek thing and the possible conspiracy involving McReelis and the evidence of this case as pointed out in the book, this could jeopordise McReelis's chances of being accepted as police chief.

Ray: You think then that .....

A.: I think it's entirely possible, but he didn't at that point, when this thing occured the position of police chief was not up for grabs, O'Neil hadn't retired, this came some time later. I think you will find there was some more personal involvements here than simply this and I'm not privy really to what they were, I've just heard rumours. One thing you will note though at the present time, we have this problem with the Police Chief at the moment, we have Sam McReelis who could be touted as the new police chief, now he hasn't been asked or anything like that if he would accept the position but, I don't know how close he is to retirement either, he's not really that old though, and the other thing is there was a time when Leo Powell and Sam McReelis were personal friends, so I'm led to believe. Now an interesting thing that is going on right at the moment is that the Province of Ontario has instructed these small town police forces to form police commissions. The town council appoints two people to the police commission, the Province appoints three, but the three to be appointed by the Province I believe, one or more of those three are local town residents as well and as the name submitted to what I have been told, on fairly good authority, these three names submitted for the other, aside from council appointees, to put on police commission have been Jack O'Grady who is a very clean retired former government employee, no suspicions of any kind around him and no criminal record certainly to my knowledge, and one Ernie Brown, another quite solid citizen but Ernie won a seat to the town council in the election so there's a question as to where that stands, the third one is Leo Powell, he is supposed to have been seeking the seat on the Port Hope police commission, now, now that's something that would have to be looked into, I can't give you a document or prove that statement. Now just stop and think though, think of Powell on the police commission and McReelis as Police Chief, also stop and think what position that whole structure would be if this Matiyek thing comes up again, its very sensitive you see, that's the internal politics as I know it that's some of the internal politics, there is more but I'm not privy to that.

Ray: What about Pat(?), his wife?

A.: To my knowledge, she is clean, but of course for that matter to my knowledge Powell is clean too, you know I'm merely giving you my....

Ray: Yes, did you know that she wants to bail out of the marriage?

A.: I'm not surprised, did you check the Registry Office to see how the ownership of the Walton Hotel is registered, you might do that.

Ray: OK, I understand from Leo Powell's wife's mother, what's her name, Carol is it, she said or gave me the impression.....

A.: Yes, I know her, she's a town character, I can't remember her name, another guy you should talk to, don't believe a word he says but you'd have to check everything he tells you, he might along with all the imagination he'll put at you, just give you a fact or two, this is Leo Powell's brother-in-law, his wife's brother, his name is Jules Joncas he's currently in jail, he spends every winter there, I don't know if he's in Cobourg or down in Kingston, he's probably in Cobourg because he's serving 90 days I think or whatever it's just a provincial term, but he is an habitual petty criminal.

Ray: He lost an arm?

A.: Yes, talk to him, he just might give you a lead, you can't trust what he says, but he might give you a lead.

Ray: His mother told me that he lost an arm, and....

A.: He never has been a Choice member to my knowledge.

Ray: No, well his mother said he lived with them for two years.

A.: That may be, but I don't think the Choice would particularly want him, he's too dangerous, well not from the physical point of view, assault has been one of the main charges against him, but he's just irrational.

Ray: His mother's father was "Cap" Hunter.

A.: That's right, that's right, did you know...

Ray: I just got that from his (?), the mother was married in Montreal and the husband died and she came back home, "Cap" was her father, he used to keep his cap on when he was having a drink and always buy two beers at a time.

A.: And he always marched in the parade, he was a character.

Ray: He used to sell hockey tickets. Was he in the hotel when it happened?

A.: I couldn't answer that, he's dead now, I can't answer that.

Ray: This guy Stewart, what do you think of him? A contractor.

A.: Oh wait a moment, Rod Stewart, Rod he's clean as far as anything insidious acts are concerned, he may have been standing there looking at it, I'm glad you brought that up, he'd be worth talking to, he's very guarded, he's a very clever guy, so unless your very skilled your going to get no more out of him than what he wants to tell you, but it would be worth talking to him again I think, but bear in mind he is bright and he's been through all this stuff. I don't know where he presently puts his position, he had no involvement with Satan's Choice to my knowledge, he had no personal involvement with any of the, Matiyek or the Satan's Choice gang, but he was in the hotel that night and he was quite often in those days, but he could very well have seen or heard something, but he's very bright and you've got to know what your doing.

Ray: Well I won't be doing any of those questions, I'm just talking to you now and I won't be doing that, there's more skilled ....

A.: Rod is a building contractor and a good one, expensive but good. I don't think it would hurt to talk to, let's see the mayor of the town at that time I believe was Michael Ladica, now he's still alive and very bright and he lives here in town and he's retired now, you may, just to see, he might give you more names and stuff, he had no intimate involvement, he's a very very straight honourable man but he still may be able to recall something and he is an historian he may have a whole pile of newspaper clippings on this and of course don't forget the files of the Port Hope Evening Guide either, are all available.

Ray: What's your feeling, do you feel that somebody had to be nailed for this?

A.:... but that's not unusual, because things had reached, it wasn't just in Port Hope we had a bad situation with Satan's Choice here, it was all across Ontario, there were things happening all across the province with Satan's Choice and you'll notice the moment that these guys all got thrown in jail it cooled right out. Now, while justice may or may not have been served in this case I don't really know OK, although certainly I heard the same stories everybody else did that Sauve and what's his name, the other one Comeau, did not do the shooting OK, I've heard that as well and heard it very early on, but we must bear in mind that the whole province had a stake in this prosecution and it did succeed in as much as it did calm Satan's Choice right down, they're not burning too many houses and what-not although there's presently a bit of a resurgence and it was a case sort of, of taking advantage of the opportunity to get the job done, clean it up. Now the position was strengthened by the fact that Comeau or Sauve did not shoot him because the Province was saying to Satan's Choice members - it doesn't matter whether you do it or not, were still going to throw you in jail for life - now that's pretty strong coercion. It is one thing to throw a guy who obviously and according to a whole bunch of witnesses actually shot the guy, but to heave a couple of guys in jail for 25 years without parole, that's even stronger and I think that's the message. In other words the Province was saying to these guys, OK we're playing it your way for a change and that's what's going to happen and it cooled everybody out.

Ray: Was there anybody local that mentioned to you about what they didS?

A.: OK, I can't divulge to you where I heard it, it's confidential.... but again I wouldn't testify on a witness stand to that..

Ray: No, this is stictly confidential, they don't know who is talking on this tape.

A.: My voice is signature enough.

Ray: That's all right, this is strictly confidential, that's why that is sitting on the table and not in my pocket.

A.: I have to be pretty careful.

Ray: So you don't think that Leon Powell's wife's mother can contribute anything to this.

A.: You can try her, no I'm not saying she won't contribute, I don't think, I don't even know if she was there that night.

Ray: No, her daughter was there.

A.: Now there's a chance if you want to be really cute, if you can get somebody in there, like I'm aware there's supposed to be tensions in that family, that's none of my business, what happens in someones family is none of my business, but if such is the case and if you've got a particularly skilled questioner there you might be able to take advantage of this, if you get her alone. Now the other thing, try and find out if the Walton Hotel is up for sale, see what happens, and find out who the owners really are and if it's in the name of a corporation, you know a holding company or something like that, I would start to work back on this because you might turn up something on this, I don't know what you'd turn up but I think you would.

Ray: My controller is right on this thing, he knows pretty well what's going on..and I know

A.: You've got to bear in mind too that the book is very persuasive, have you talked to the author of the book?

Ray: No

A.: Well you should get a hold of him, the last I heard of him the Globe and Mail, because I was a writer for them during those years, at the time that he published that book I believe the author was living in Sudbury or North Bay, I don't know if he's still there or not but I would suggest you get a hold of him and of course there must be a list of people too in the bibliography that you can get a hold of.

Ray: Mick Lowe, he lives on the Vermillion River, that's north of Sudbury, now Sudbury when I was up there, as I say it's been 10 years or so, the Choice were running the drug trade like you wouldn't believe.

A.: Well they're running it all over, and that's why they gave up and, it's much more valuable for them to lay low and peddle drugs quietly than it is to run around and burn buildings down like they used to.

Ray: You mean right now....

A.: There's always drugs, again there's no evidence as far as I can see that the Choice are being couriers for drugs because I wouldn't know and one can only go by what your given to understand.

Ray: Well you were working as a journalist at the time and..

A.: They're not usung motorcycles anymore that I can guarantee.

Ray: Well I hope something comes of this

A.: But they also know, they know that they're there because it was necessary to show an example and they're also damn well aware that they were losers in a power game. They were losers and they got 25 years out of it, now sure I'd fight it if I was in too, but the murder has nothing to do with this, it's a struggle between the Province and Satan's Choice and the Province sets their muscles and threw two guys in jail for 25 years. That's basically what happened and at least that's my belief and one might argue that justice was served on that point of view, one might argue that, I'm not going to..

Ray: I agree with it, yes I agree with you, I can't see, if you do something wrong and get punished for it but I get awfully annoyed ..

A.: When you've got a record of having done things wrong and getting away with it for years, peddling drugs or whatever, if indeed that was the case, and I have to put that in.

Ray: What do you think the Province got off with these guys, how do you think they managed to accomplish this?

A.: How did the Province manage to accomplish a conviction? I don't know, I can't remember was it a trial by judge or by jury? It was a jury trial wasn't it, in London, that's right, I didn't cover the trial because it wasn't in my jurisdiction.

Ray: There was an O.P.P. officer there, posed as a biker.

A.: I know, I've heard about this guy too, he was famous for that role.

Ray: The question, what I think about anyway, is how the Province achieved this victory if you want to call it that, with these two people?

A.: One of the things was, Campbell, the witness Campbell, the only one who said that Comeau and Sauve didn't do it because he allegedly, and only my memory says this, he was the one who admitted to having done the shooting, right in the court room, but the point is because Campbell at that point had such a reputation as a drug user and there was suspicion he was high on drugs at that time, that was at the time of his testimony, that the court threw out his testimony as being unreliable, because he was an unreliable witness, he wasn't functioning properly. In other words he was virtually eliminated. There's an interesting question brought up by this, you remember that Campbell was testifying under the Canada Evidence Act therefore he couldn't be arrested and charged for his statements on the witness stand so had they released or cut their sentences down and merely made them accessories and tried to charge Campbell they couldn't have made the charge stick. But the question is, you know there's a very interesting fact when you think about this, the few seconds that the group was surrounding Matiyek, how many guns were in view, how did the Satan's Choice group that is Sauve, Comeau and their friends intimidate Matiyek, did they show a weapon, and did anybody see a weapon in Campbell's hand, in other words, was there any point here when there were two weapons in sight, did anyone see two weapons? Because you can ask yourself this question, if we saw one weapon in Campbell's hand then that may be the one that did the shooting, if you saw two weapons, who shot of the two, and what did forensic say. Now if I remember right, now I'm at a disadvantage of it, were the bullets in good enough condition to do a forensic test on them.

Ray: Yes, I do know one thing about forensic, that a bullet was in Sauve, he had a bullet in him, the bullet that was in Sauve had material in it that came from Matiyek's coat.

A.: Yes that's right, and where did Matiyek's coat go?

Ray: and in there you see a tale...

A.: There is a lot of people, you should really try and find out who else was in that room that night at that time and a person who might help you out with that would be Rod Stewart, because that's not asking him to commit himself on anything, to say well who else was there with you, who did you see there, and go through these people one by one, there's always a possibility that the prosecution only called as witnesses those whom they wanted to call, there may have been some other people who would have made perfectly good witnesses who were never called, they were never subpoenaed to appear. Check the hotel register for that night and see who was registered because there's a possibility although I think many of them are permanent roomers, that they may have been sitting in that room. There may have been some little old man, because there was a lot of elderly people, who was upstairs at the time who may have been down for a quick drink before he went to bed.

Ray: There is a plan of the Lounge, that's where the people were sitting.

A.: Is there a list of all the people? How do you know the list is complete?

If you have got some little old man who was quietly sitting in a corner who is a resident of that hotel and nobody asked him a thing, and some one in off the street, you never know, and he sure isn't going to come forward and say because you know what happens to most people. So you should check that and also let me think now, another long shot you might do, check those people who were resident at the Ganaraska Hotel up the street at the same time, check their Register. Now they are also permanent roomers too, but they must have a list of them for that time, I'm sure it's illegal if they don't, because a lot of those guys will go from hotel to hotel in other words those who stayed at the Ganny could have gone down to the Walton that night and just gone back to his room. You could also check the Greenwood Tower Motel, it's the same thing, and it's a lot of work for maybe nothing but you may get one person. People move around as you know when they're drinking, now at that time the Tower had a licence a Lounge licence, now it's quite possible that somebody found it a little too toney, maybe a couple of construction workers or something that were there may have gone down to the Ganny for a, not the Ganny but the Walton or the Queen's as it was known then. I'm being very careful here, the names that I'm quoting are just names on the public record and if I were in your place I think that's how I would go at it.

Ray: I could take it to my control and see where to go from there.

A.: He could feel free to call me if he has any specific questions.

This conversation was recorded on Thursday, December 12, 1991 at the residence of Mr. Larry Hall in Port Hope. He is a very articulate man, has a very good memory and for 20 odd years was an investigative reporter on the Globe and Mail and he has a journalistic background and I believe that I established an excellent rapport with this gentleman and there is no doubt that in the future as he gains confidence with us, that he will no doubt release some details that could be of use. Raymond W. Ealey.

Larry Hall (6l) - local radio station announcer who was working at the time of the Matiyek murder.

Roy Ealey interviewed him Dec 11.-- he is sending him a tape - met face to face with Larry Hall (6l)

- Larry Hall is an environmentalist

- Hall says there is no doubt Campbell fired the shots

- Larry Hall says he can't disclose names about where the information comes from.

- Larry Hall is referring us to seek various witnesses.

- Gave dope on Powell's wife and her mother.

- He suggests checking the Hotel registry.

December 20, 11:00 a.m. -- Gary Comeau called.

Comeau had heard $5, $l0, $20. We heard Florida, Hawaii- these were bribes the witnesses received.

Armand Sanguigni had it down pat, he was a leader, he was experienced.

Jeff was pretty quiet.

Terry O'Hara was the best lawyer

Kerbel was a clown

Armand was saying get rid of Kerbel.

Money going to Kerbel from SCMC as learned from transcripts

Kerbel was incompetent

Kerbel was slow to get the bullet x-rayed in Gary

Mick Lowe went to see Kerbel, Kerbel was supposed to do a lot of different things.

Kerbel could remember that Comeau had lost a tooth in 1975 but couldn't remember the details of the trial for Mick Lowe, when Meinhardt said to jury "maybe there was two gunmen"

Bruce Affleck called a meeting

Kerbel wouldn't do the things he should have done.

Kerbel would reinstate witnesses after.

Comeau went to Sauve's place first, Comeau went in Jeff's car.

Sauve's house was just off 40l, two strikers stayed to babysit.

Called John Hill.

- a Mr. Scribe, Colbourne. Tony Scriber, 355-2520, friend of Comeau's has called John. Brighton 475-4192, Toronto 657-8987. Helper:- he will help by driving witnesses.

Dover Seafood House. Gail Doyle has been laid off, left number with waitress there. Plates in lot at closing time - Honda YMM 641, 4WD - NBN 865, 239 HLN, 216 LAJ - is the waitresses vehicle, registereed to Goodmakers Auto Sales.

10:05 pm. Feb 02, 1992. Home of Cotgrave, 46 Caroline - For Sale - $134,900.00 listed for 3 months RMR Real Estate Limited (Helen Collins 885-2129). 885-7257. 10:50 stopped by police. Car in driveway LDC 38 Feb.03 - Helen Collins - 50 x 132' lot, house is 50 years old, sold to people about 12 years ago. Open House, 46 Caroline from 1 to 3:30, Sunday February 9th. 3 bedrooms on 2nd. floor, 1 bedroom in basement, Oak floors living room.

Possible: (Doyle, R.R.4 Cobourg, 342-5213)

Cotgrave, Lawrence 885-6670. Called Mrs. Cotgrave and got Cathy's # 885-1667.

Cathy Cotgrave in Port Hope, Bell reverse has # as K. Eastman, 97 Mill Road. Cathy Cotgrave lives at a home at 97 Mill Road 885-1667, the phone is registered to K. Eastman. Stopped by Police at 10:50, guy looked at D.L. said he was checking out a complaint that I was looking at Real Estate sign with a flashlight.

Catherine Sedgwick is the editor of the Port Hope Evening Guide. 885-2471.

Dave Milne did story on Police Association.

Mandy Martin was an editor in the late 70's.

Chez Paree , Feb. 06 / 92, 8:35 p.m. Jeff McLeod, his brother and mother.

Try Bars in Ottawa to find Branson and Jones, ask strippers. Jeff thinks they may know nothing. "Dogmap" Gordie Van Harlem was screwing McReelis's wife. Meinhardt offered many different plea bargains, range was 5 to 8 yrs. O.P.P. were in charge of prisoners at all times. O.P.P.in charge of prisoners told accused after '79 verdit "you were screwed". Asked McLeod if he would take lie-detector test - "yes". A friend of Jeff's attended our table at approx. 9:30 (learned later the guy was a Peel Regional Police), his name is Rob, he has black hair, black moustache about 5'10", hair is longish wearing tie and leather coat, he is about 35 or less. He seemed to be suggesting that Terry Hall and the O.P.P. would do me in, that my lic. would be suspended by the O.P.P. for opposing Hall. "Terry Hall is an inspector now" he said. Guy was arrogant and rude. I told him it was no big deal to be on the other side, the defendant's side in a court of law, that investigators are often in that position and that defendants are entitled to this service.

Mr. McLeod's list of priorities:

l. Lawrence Leon shooting up his car then claiming the Choice did it.

2. Sue Foote saying she knew Jeff McLeod. McLeod never saw her before in his life.

3. The collusion of witnesses.

4. Hoffman wire tap. Cops knew he wasn't there yet proceeded.

5. McLeod sat for two months and never heard his name once.

David Hoffman owns Golds Gym in Kitchener, listed in phone book as Golds Gym. Hoffman is a heavyweight lifter.

Left Chez Paree at 1:25 a.m.

Life Health and Fitness 742-4653, King St. in Kitchener, talked to David Hoffman. Next Wednesday, February 12, I am to call Hoffman and arrange for a meeting that evening.

YKD 734, DH's car, Dave Hoffman's wife's plate is YKD 734.

Person in Ottawa: Bill Corbett 613-957-7465. Criminal Prosecutions.

Avisson; suggestion that witnesses were not forthright. I concluded that people in the Ganaraska sorted out the facts for themselves. Big problem was that Thomas's appeal asked. Bartender Galbraith can talk about demeanor, he says Lorne has never told his story without a net. There is a ring of truth in Lorne's story. Lorne is a striking guy.

ON FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 7, 1992 at 6:49 pm Don Avisson of the Federal Department Of Justice returned my telephone call from Yellowknife.

NOTE: The call from Yellowknife is barely audible on the tape and the VOX keeps turning off. Much of Avisson's remarks are missing. See O'Brien's notes.

AVISSON: Hi. Is Micheal J. O'Brien there please?

O'BRIEN: Speaking.

AVISSON: Mr. O'Brien, it's Don Avisson calling from Yellowknife.

O'BRIEN: Don, how are you?

AVISSON: I'm very well. How about you?

O'BRIEN: Good. I want to thank you for the call. You're calling from Yellowknife.

AVISSON: Mm Hm.

O'BRIEN: By George, I thought I was calling you in Calgary.

AVISSON: (laughs)

O'BRIEN: Son of a gun.

I'm a private investigator.

AVISSON: Mm Hm.

O'BRIEN: I'm working on the Port Hope eight.

AVISSON: Oh.

O'BRIEN: There was a matter that you looked into in November of 1990 -- actually prior to November of 1990 -- on a, a guess it was a 690 plea to the Minister coming from counsellor Elizabeth Thomas. We're trying to find some way of sorting this thing out, as you can well imagine. I've got a couple of questions for you relating to the report that you filed. There's been some discrepancy -- only in terms of hearsay -- as to what was in the report and what the outcome of the exercise was. And...(inaudible)

Do you know of any way of obtaining a copy of that report?

AVISSON: Well, it's difficult to do because it falls into the scope of the solicitor/client advice -- ah, solicitor/client advice that has developed with the Minister...(inaudible)

O'BRIEN: What about the Access to Information Act? I guess that's not going to do it, is it?

AVISSON: I don't think it will, no. I can give you the name of the person in Ottawa who's the one who generally remains responsible for those areas...(inaudible) His name's Bill Corbett...(inaudible) ...(inaudible)

AVISSON: His name's Bill Corbett. And he can be reached at area code 613...(inaudible) ...(inaudible)

O'BRIEN: 7465, eh?

AVISSON: 957-4765.

O'BRIEN: Okay, good stuff.

AVISSON: ...(inaudible) ...(inaudible) He's your best bet to put the question to, but to give you an idea about what I think the answer will be about this confidential...(inaudible)

O'BRIEN: In other words, the client being the Minister.

AVISSON: That's right.

O'BRIEN: Yeah. Interesting and yet tricky stuff, isn't it?

AVISSON: Well, it is difficult stuff and I'd be interested to find out where things are at with your investigation and what's happening. This is a very difficult case, a very troubling one, and from my point of view...(inaudible) any of the classic difficulties with these types of enquiries.

O'BRIEN: Did you ever run across any suggestion that witnesses were paid?

AVISSON: I can't say that I ran across any suggestion that the witnesses were paid. I was involved in this investigation in certain stages when suggestions were ripe because of the pressure of the investigation. But that's not really the way it wore out in the enquiries that I conducted. What I concluded as a result of...(inaudible) That night, when the people from the bar are sitting around and debating the subject...(inaudible)

O'BRIEN: Ganaraska.

AVISSON: Yeah. They pretty well ironed out in their own minds as to who was there and what was happening at that point. The biggest difficulty with an application of this kind is in these kinds of circumstances, applicants are asking the Minister for evidence that was heard by a jury and a judge...(inaudible)

O'BRIEN: I don't think counsel did a good job, quite frankly. And I don't think counsel's done a good job from the time of October 18th onward. Those guys have not had the benefit of a good defence.

AVISSON: Well, I can't disagree with that although I thought Terry O'Hara was impressive, but very young at that time.

O'BRIEN: He's pretty impressive, even today.

AVISSON: Pretty?

O'BRIEN: Impressive. Even today.

AVISSON: Oh yeah, he's a pretty good lawyer...(inaudible)

O'BRIEN: My big problem with this thing is that Hoffman was, on the evidence held by police, not in the bar at that time, but was nonetheless charged. In other words, police swore out an information against him and charged him with murder, even though they knew he was not in the place.

AVISSON: I don't know if that's accurate or not. I think that they essentially came to the idea...(inaudible) the issue is whether or not the ones who were investigating this particular case...(inaudible)

O'BRIEN: Terry Hall knew. Terry Hall knew.

AVISSON: Then you know more than I do.

O'BRIEN: Terry Hall ordered the wires...(inaudible) on the Kitchener club. The clubhouse in Toronto was also wired. The clubhouse in Toronto was wired, and police heard Sauvé call Comeau and Comeau tell him to get lost, on the first call, and heard Comeau say -- well, I'll see what I can do -- on the second call. In other words, no mens rea at that point. You know, if Comeau said to Sauvé in the first call -- I'm not going up there, we're not going up there, we're watching the hockey game -- there's clearly no mens rea, but if you hold the dates back, and know that the defence can only have telephone bills, etcetera, right, the point being, I mean, they proceeded, you know, in brinksmanship I suppose, to the courtroom, trying to get a conviction, assuming that they're going to be met by the New York Yankees in terms of a defence team. Of course, they were met by a bunch of wet Lipton tea bags. There was no defence, and everything stuck.

AVISSON: Have you sat down and talked to Lorne about this in some detail yet?

O'BRIEN: Lorne Campbell?

AVISSON: Yeah.

O'BRIEN: No. Not Lorne Campbell. I've talked to -- Lorne is in the can right now.

AVISSON: Oh, is he.

O'BRIEN: Yeah.

AVISSON: (laughs) What's he there for?

O'BRIEN: Coke. Three years.

AVISSON: Oh, shit (laughs).

O'BRIEN: So, you know, I don't have any difficulty grappling with Lorne Campbell walking across that bar and shooting Matiyek. It's in character for him. The other guys, you know McLeod included, were a little more docile than that. They were -- for example, McLeod was intimidated by guys like Bronson and Jones. Bronson and Jones by that time were hard asses, pardon the expression, but they came out of KP, right, Kingston and you know, they've done hard time and they'd already learned, you know, the way of the street from the real hard perspective.

AVISSON: Yeah.

O'BRIEN: And they were an intimidation to the guys.

AVISSON: Well, there's an interesting guy for you to talk to, the man who was the bartender at the time. He claims to have seen nothing.

O'BRIEN: Galbraith?

AVISSON: Yeah. He can tell you a little about the demeanor of the people that were sitting at that particular place, and he'll tell you that...(inaudible) Galbraith says that he had his head down...(inaudible) at the time.

O'BRIEN: Yeah.

AVISSON: I don't know if that's true or not, I don't know whether Galbraith was being forthright or not.

O'BRIEN: Yeah.

AVISSON: ...(inaudible) To me, one of the significant things in all of this is that Lorne has never told his story...(inaudible) and he tells it to the jury with a net under him...(inaudible) Lorne spoke to Mr. Ruby's office...(inaudible) to ensure that he'd covered all the bases...(inaudible) So at the time of the conduct of our enquiry, he's back in with a net...(inaudible) and as a result...(inaudible) There is a ring of truth in what Lorne says.

O'BRIEN: Isn't there, eh?

AVISSON: I don't know. I do not know what happened in the bar that night.

O'BRIEN: It's pretty hard to look at a guy like Blaker and see him do all that time. McLeod who walked into the bar didn't know what the hell was going on, went and sat at the bar, and then heard the shots, and everyone running, and ran with them sort of thing.

AVISSON: But you know, the one thing that bothers me with the whole thing is -- have you seen photographs of Lorne or have you ever met him?

O'BRIEN: I've seen photographs of him, yeah.

AVISSON: This is a striking guy. He has a very distinctive appearance. For people to have been in the bar -- Lorne claims to have been in there before the rest of them get there. And I'm sure you've been in the bar. We're not talking about a big place.

O'BRIEN: No. No.

AVISSON: Two...(inaudible)

O'BRIEN: I know it intimately.

AVISSON: ...(inaudible) steps and you're right across. For Lorne to have been in the bar for that period of time with people that knew him from previous times and nobody...(inaudible)

O'BRIEN: Well, from Lorne's statement as to where he was, and from Sue Foote's statement as to where she was, there's no way she could have seen him. She was blocked by the centrepiece of the bar. In other words, her angle of view would have barely included Matiyek's table and for most of the distance from where Campbell was to Matiyek's side, Foote would have been screened. Susan Foote -- you know, we have a pretty deep understanding of who this person is and it's pretty hard to, even today, believe a word she says about anything. She claimed to have been with, presumably sexually, McLeod, and nothing seems further from the truth. Extraordinary. But nonetheless, you know, you put the two things together -- the material facts in terms of the relationship between the two people in that place, the line of sight and so on -- and then secondly, the fact that she is known as being a somewhat untruthful person, then, it's pretty hard to understand -- I mean, the jury was pumped up by The Globe & Mail and The Toronto Star It was Terry Hall's propensity to use the media, following on the heels of the American stuff, you know, falling out of the RICO thing.

AVISSON: Yeah, I don't have much of a sense of him. I only met him one time.

O'BRIEN: I've known him since he was a kid.

AVISSON: Yeah? It was difficult for me to gather much of an impression...(inaudible)

O'BRIEN: There's nothing too much different about the Matiyek case from the rest of Hall's life and the way he does things. One of his ex-partners works for us.

AVISSON: The other guy...(inaudible) the police officer...(inaudible)

O'BRIEN: McReelis?

AVISSON: He's a strange guy.

O'BRIEN: They're about to throw him into Lake Ontario right now, I think -- the Police Association.

AVISSON: What happened?

O'BRIEN: Well, all kinds of foul play internally. He's being investigated.

AVISSON: He and I didn't hit it off at all. As far as them, I don't know...(inaudible) As far as...(inaudible)

O'BRIEN: Well, you know what the problem was with McReelis? Remember van Harlem? Van Harlem was the guy who was...(inaudible)

AVISSON: There's some suggestion that van Harlem had spent some time with McReelis' wife.

O'BRIEN: Absolutely true.

AVISSON: Yeah.

O'BRIEN: Just where he was that night.

AVISSON: That particular night.

O'BRIEN: Yeah. McReelis has been in trouble before. We've simply pointing to the fact that his methods and procedures are certainly wanting, but I think you answered one of my biggest questions, and that was what was the Minister's problem with the pitch, and of course, the pitch did ask that the thing be retried in its parts, right?

AVISSON: Yeah.

O'BRIEN: And...(inaudible)

AVISSON: To be perfectly blunt, there was never any focus to the application. It was just sort of thrown at the desk.

O'BRIEN: Yeah.

AVISSON: Here go to it guys, see what you can think of this. We spent a lot of time on it, because I was worried about it. And I think it's in the report. But I can tell you this...(inaudible) had a chance to talk to Lorne...(inaudible)

O'BRIEN: We've been on it for about four months.

AVISSON: Sorry?

O'BRIEN: We've been on it for about four months.

AVISSON: I'd certainly be prepared to talk to you further about it if there...(inaudible)

O'BRIEN: Lorne Campbell's statement -- you found it to be certainly believable, eh?

AVISSON: Well, I can't say that I found it entirely believable. I'm left in the same quandry as everybody else. It's more of being his distinctive appearance...(inaudible) for him to be in the bar for that period...(inaudible) There's a secondary issue from my point of view, with Lorne being the kind of character that he was -- is -- he's a very likable guy, on a very superficial basis...(inaudible) but he seems to be, from what I've understood from speaking to...(inaudible) Lorne is more likely than not to be a meddler.

O'BRIEN: Yeah, exactly.

AVISSON: Lorne could be off on the side sitting quietly in the shadows...(inaudible) Is he believable?...(inaudible) You're in a situation where I'm not. If you can't give him any promises you can't keep...(inaudible) My sense is he will talk to you...(inaudible)

O'BRIEN: Yeah, I can understand what you're saying about the net, that's appropriate. Did you run across Bronson and Jones? Sunny Bronson and Fred Jones -- or any reference to them.

AVISSON: Oh, I ran across many references to them, but not them.

O'BRIEN: They were never called and our problem with that is that when the Satan's Choice walked into that bar, they gravitated to Jones and Bronson, maybe as many as six of them, from the evidence given in the trial. And no one attended to Matiyek until finally Sauvé, in fact it was Sauvé who said let's...(inaudible)

AVISSON: See what the fat fucker wants.

O'BRIEN: Exactly. And then did. In other words, the point of focus, the point of interest within the bar was the Outlaws. Even today, the Choice members, or former Choice members -- the accused and convicted -- they say don't talk to them, they're Outlaws. They're nasty guys, they won't help us, we don't like them, they don't like us. They're jerks -- that's why we were there. They're assholes -- don't talk to them, they won't help us. In other words, there's such a consistency to that in context of a group of people who went to that place most interested in what the Outlaws were doing in there, whether they were recruiting, causing trouble for them, or whatever.

I wonder, in your opinion, do you think if these two were brought forward as part of a package with some testimony that suggested that that was the primary focus of the Satan's Choice members when they attended in the place, is it an attack on, or proof of mens rea? Do you think that would be significant enough to look at this thing under 609 and either retry it or whatever?

AVISSON: I don't know if that would be significant enough. That would certainly depend on whether or not...(inaudible)

O'BRIEN: If I walked in Kathy Cotgrave and proved that she had taken $10,000, $3,000 of which she used to buy Doug Peart a keyboard for his band, $5,000 of which she used to help her parents who were buying 46 Caroline Street which transacted on the 30th of October and concluded early in 1979 -- do you think that would make a difference? My problem there is that I'll get thrown back at us the argument that it was McMurtry's witness protection programme and the fact that some of these witnesses took trips, vacation trips and so on, and received funds, was to help protect them, and whatever they did with the funds, it wasn't under the control of the Minister.

AVISSON: Yeah. I expect that that would be the answer you would get...(inaudible)

O'BRIEN: It was pretty clear that some of the witnesses lied. Even within just the context of the trial itself. If you go from page one to page 35,000 in the transcript, you come up with some anomalies. Even minor things, like Cotgrave talking about not taking any drugs and then taking drugs -- from Matiyek. Within her own testimony there's contradiction. Things like that. In other words, the credibility of the witnesses is such that they certainly weren't telling the truth, the whole truth, all the time.

AVISSON: No, but again, that's one of the difficulties that the jury wrestled with at the time. And three of the inconsistencies that existed at the time may not have been explored and utilized to the extent that they might have been by counsel...(inaudible) Where does that take you? The fact that there were some inconsistencies in the evidence, it tells you not much more than that.

O'BRIEN: If you couple that with funds received in payment for inconsistencies. I mean, obviously that's the deduction, but...(inaudible)

AVISSON: That gets more interesting. As far as the trial itself...(inaudible)

O'BRIEN: There's no question about it. They were paid.

AVISSON: Yeah.

O'BRIEN: They were paid. We've got sworn statements. We've got direct evidence. We've taken these witnesses -- we've run their houses, we've run their Credit Bureaus, we've totally invaded their privacy -- unfortunately, but true. And determined that -- some of them now are three times married and leaving a wake of pissed-off ex-spouses who are willing to talk, and it's pretty clear. So there's physical evidence, there's documentary evidence and there's testimonial evidence from parties nearby indicating that they received some kind of remuneration. Someone like Kathy Cotgrave -- by the time she was nineteen had never earned $10,000 in a single year of her life. We don't have a copy of the cancelled cheque, sort of thing, or the photograph of the bundle of cash, but we can only presume where it came from. Do you think that's going to...(inaudible)

AVISSON: Can I get you to hold on?

O'BRIEN: Sure. (pause) Do you see that as having any impact? I mean, I'm worried about the political dimension to a certain extent in that a lot of McMurtry's people were at the time political appointees evacuated when the Liberals came in, and of course, Conservative political appointees in justice area would either go out into the private sector or public sector elsewhere or end up in Ottawa. And I don't know if any of those people would want McMurtry's practice in terms of the witness protection programme, ever opened up. In other words, this thing's going to come back with another letter saying tough luck guys.

AVISSON: I have no idea -- any idea about how the Attorney General of Ontario would act, past or present...(inaudible)

O'BRIEN: I'm thinking of the cultural aspect and the impact on people around Justice Minister Campbell who, in my view, I think she's the best shot anyone's got. She's a fair and reasonable person. And my opinion, certainly differs from everyone surrounding this case, but however...(inaudible)

AVISSON: Yeah.

O'BRIEN: Am I wrong on that, do you think?

AVISSON: Well, no, I don't think so. I think if anybody has got the guts to do something, it's her.

O'BRIEN: Yeah.

AVISSON: She is more likely to be...(inaudible) to hear the...(inaudible) on a strictly personal level and the politics and personality...(inaudible) Milgard I think is evidence of that.

O'BRIEN: Yeah, it is.

AVISSON: In the face of some additional information she took what was an extremely difficult decision. The right one.

O'BRIEN: Your gut feeling -- in all the work that you did -- your gut feeling; were these guys convicted because they were members of the Satan's Choice, or because they were at the material time, likely candidates for being the ones who conspired and did kill Bill Matiyek?

AVISSON: I just don't know the answer to that question...(inaudible) I spent a lot of good time and aggravation spending a lot of time...(inaudible) on the jury's treatment on the question of reasonable doubt, I can say there was no benefit to being a part of that organization at that place, at that point in time.

O'BRIEN: No. No. Not with the way they were set up and described by the Crown's witnesses. Hall included.

Avisson: Of all the case that I have done there are two that really bothered me. This was one and the other was in Vancouver.

O'BRIEN: It is certainly bothering a lot of people.

Well, I Appreciate your time Mr. Avisson. I will call you and let you know where we are going on this thing and what we dig up.

We are strongly focussed on this payment of the witnesses -- the witness protection programme -- because none of them did any of the usual things that one does under the programme. There isn'rt a programme per se there's a de facto witness protection programme wwhereas in the States there is a real one -- a structured programme. In Canada, it was McMurtry's game against organized crime -- and if we ever opened that entire book it likely would turn out to be a real can of worms.

AVISSON: Yeah.

O'BRIEN: I'm thinking of Cecil Kirby and some other things.

Avisson: If you do meet with Lorne, one piece of advise I will give is that when you meet him meet him alone. When I met with him there was some one with him, the guy who was instrumental in starting up the Satan's Choice in the first place. He kept trying to ddominate the conversation.

O'BRIEN: That was Bernie Guindon.

AVISSON: I have long wondered if Lorne would have been more helpful if he were alone. He kept interrupting and controling the conversation.

O'BRRIEN: Doesn't that indicate that Lorne is lying -- protecting somebody else?

AVISSON: Who would Lorne be protecting?

O'BRIEN: One of the four or five people whose names never came up.

AVISSON: I think from everyone came the indication that there may have been other individuals there that were being protected.

O'BRIEN: Guindon was trying to take over the conversation at all times?

AVISSON: Oh yeah. Yes.

Now I don't know if that was for any particular adverse purpose. He just couldn't seem to keep his mouth shut.

O'BRIEN: Well thank you again Mr. Avisson.

AVISSON: Ok. Well let me know.

O'BRIEN: I will do that. Bye bye.

AVISSON: Bye bye.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hall was pumping up McReelis. Cousins was head of the investigation. When they visited me they were like two guys put together over rope. McReelis was asking strange questions. Hall was at the raid at the Kitchener Clubhouse. Hoffman was at clubhouse at 7:45. Hall knew David Hoffman was at the clubhouse. Hall and local coppers were at the raid at the Kitchener Clubhouse. Hall knew the club was bugged. Elizabeth Thomas gave copies of the wire taps to someone in Justice, McLeod knows who! Where did Hall go after the Kitchener raid, Kitchener cops did the wires. Hoffman knew Gayle Thompson and Koehler knew them well. Some guy who looked like Hoffman was seen by Gayle Thompson, his name was Dave something. (Galbraith said he had his head down). Stewart was a very credible witness. Glaister a freelance reporter - Gayle had only met me once. She really thought this fella Grey was me. Sue Foote, ugly. Helen Mitchell was discredited by defence. Jury was good cross-sectin. Judge liked Hoffman. Says Campbell did it. I always felt aloof to the whole thing. No interviews(?). Merv Blaker - pretty quiet simple man. We knew the witnesses were being coached, rehearsed, pressured. We worried about the witnesses being gathered together in the Ganaraska Hotel. Pigpen, Howard Berry knows Jones (Fred). Bill Lavoie, he had a degenerative bone disease. Bill Lavoie has two plastic hips, Bill has a great memory. Hoffman knew Kelly and liked him. No one saw Sanguigni except one witness. No planning, knee jerk reaction. Some guys expected Matiyek would get a beating. Cousins was a straight shooter. Hall would have been on his best behaviour around Cousins. Dave Hoffman had a copy of the transcript of Mick's book. Bill Lavoie may know where Jones & Bronson. Bernie Guindon may know about Bronson. I asked David Hoffman to talk to the member who had been in the Queen's but who was not identified, will he testify to help us.

Hoffman's Priorities:

- get to Hall and find out how he did it.

- get the witnesses too

The remainder -- saw the guy named "Dave" in Can. Tire Store in Orillia. One guy was killed in a car accident, one guy still in club. Some of the 12 people on the jury didn't want to be there. Jury deliberated a little better than a day. Hoffman was on bail after. David agreed to talk to one of the unnamed Choice witnesses. We left Connestoga at 11:43.

February 17, 1992 5:58 p.m. Co-Accused called: COMEAU SAUVE CASE

Gary Comeau says: They gave me the shaft. I put in for camp twice in 1990, in February 1990 this facility supported me, Regionals shot me down. I went to court. The court said I had to meet some criteria. I met the criteria. I got the pass in December 1992. I was told if the institution was supportive. I was told that Judicial review cases will not go to minimum security. Warkworth says Regional is not supportive any longer. The institution is not supporting me any longer and they say that will be for another year. The camp transfer board was on the 29th. of January. The package went back to Regional and the decision was taken the following week. Paul Charkavi, Classification Officer at Warkworth, Comeau heard that this guy might have been a parole officer from Barrie who was taking loans from a parolee.

NOTE TO FILE

FJ ran into a retired SCMC member was asking about who was Comeau's lawyer. It was Bill Lavoi he was talking to. It was somewhere near Peterborough.

I was talking to Merv Blaker. Merv had a set of transcripts which he brought to John Hill's place. Bobbie Cousins is dead, said Merv Blaker. It would have been sometime in January.

John sent a letter to the Justice Department asking for an acknowledgement of the meeting between Lorne Campbell and Don Avisson. Lorne Campbel agreed to sign a release under the privacy commission. Did Lawrence Leon's wife pick up the letter from the Post Office or was it delivered by the mailman.

Wakely.

February 17,1992 - 5:58 p.m. Gary Comeau called

Gary says:

- they gave me the shaft

- I put in for camp twice in 1990. In Feb./90 this facility supported me

- Regional shot me down

- I went to court, the court said I had to meet some criteria

- I met the criteria, I got the pass in December 1992

- I was told if the insitution was supportive

- I was told that Judicial Review cases will not go to Minimum Security

- Warkworth, says Regional, is not supportive any longer

- the institution is not supporting me any longer and they say that will be for another year

- the Camp Transfer Board was on the 29th. of January

- the package went back to Regional and the decision was taken the following week

- Paul Charkavi, Classification Officer at Warkworth. Comeau heard that this guy might have been a Parole Officer from Barrie who was taking loans from a parolee.

Regarding the Comeau/Sauve case:

FJ ran into a retired SCMC member and was asking about who was Comeau's lawyer. It was BL he was talking to. It was somewhere near Peterborough. I was talking to Merv Blaker. Merv had a set of transcripts which he brought to John Hill's place. Bobby Cousins is dead, said Merv Blaker. It would have been sometime in January. John sent a letter to the Justice Department asking for an acknowledgement of the meeting between Lorne Campbell and Don Avisson. Lorne Campbell agreed to sign a release under the privacy commission. Did Lawrence Leon's wife pick up the letter from the Post Office or was it delivered by the mailman?

Gary Comeau

P.O. Box 760

Campbellford, ON K0L 1L0

Dear Gary:

Thanks for the press clipping and the two pics. You and Jeff look great and the pic of your wonderful mom reminds us how important this case really is.

I would like to ask what might seem to be a strange request of you. We are doing some computer modelling and need some measurements. If you would indulge us in this we will attempt to complete our trajectory model.

I would kike to have measurements of:

1) aour height; and

2) your shoulder/underarm height from a sitting position.

Item 1 is straightforward. Item 2 can be achieved by sitting in a chair in a normal position and measuring the distance from the surface of the chair to a) the top of your shoulder and b) your underarm.

Gordy Van Harlem him and his girlfriend were on the bike and a half-ton ran into them. Fire hurt him and his girl. Gordie lost his foot.

Gordie is in Bowmanville

His number is 416-697-1373

Gary talked to Merv Blaker's Mom

Merv is doing great. He got special permission to go to Florida shortly after parole.

He can be reached at 416-352-3258 Merv is coming back from Florida tomorrow.

Gary asked about Howard Kerbel.

97 Mill Steet is a rooming house where Kathy Eastman lives.

March 15 - Visited Gord Van Harlem, 2195 Hwy. 2 at Hoff Rd. Stan is with Gord.

2:00 p.m. arrived at Gord Van Harlem's house, name on box is Pidgeon. Boat in back yard, small white frame house. Stan is Oshawa President.

Cops were trying to make deals. Cops knew Gordie was not there. Helen Mitchell said Gordie was there. No one saw Helen Mitchell in the bar. In jail for one year. Went to see McReelis. Gord was missing shirt, chain belt, leather vest. Hall said it was in Port Hope. McReelis said it was lost when they moved offices. Jail guard was huge guy. Meinhardt, Meinhardt was pushing Catgrove as the best witness. Meinhardt pushed the fact that the waitresses were expert at surveying the bar. Saw Helen Mitchell in Tanglewoods Hotel on Hwy. 2 - there is a horse with some kind of Caped Crusader, a strip joint, she is a stripper. Gordie has been to the Port Hope Hotel. You don't get served in the Ganaraska. Everyone of those guys in that town:- Dwight Boyle - tough guy "Diesel" still in Peterborough. "Rick Price" "little idiot - he said a lot things to a lot of people." He runs plumbing store in Oshawa. Price is a gopher, he never went past being a striker. Gordie stayed out of the connivings. Gordie agreed to a deal on (?) to get 5 years. All the guys were always plotting leaving and before trial they were looking for a deal with the cops. Cops said to Gordie "How is it that you miss all the excitement". Bobbie Cousins aged 45 to 50 passed on. Left Gord's home at 4:20 p.m.

Tanglewood Hotel 436-2069. #2 Highway, Harmony Rd. to #2 East, to Preston Vale Rd., North side Hwy. 2 East. The Tanglewood Hotel is a few miles east of Harmony Road on #2. at intersection of Prestonvale Road and Hwy.#2.

March 15, 1992 5:30 pm, met with Howard at a bar near his home.

- met "Star" "Robin" Debbie Smythe

- no on knows a Helen

- there are up to 6 "Freelancers" coming into the bar

- Larry ("Barry Morrison") arrived around 10:00 - left at 11:00

- asked bartenders and bouncers in both bars

- checked "playpen" which is at the Ganaraska Hotel

- checked the CASTLE in Bowmanville

- no luck, 1:20 a.m. left area.

March 19, 7:20 p.m. - Gord Van Harlem, phone

Brian Babcocks lives in Port Hope, 885-1609, mother in Cobourg 372-9733, wife is Faith Doyle, mother-in-law is..

Randy Koehler is still around, Gordie says, in Port Hope. The folks all say the witnesses are all in town. Babcock stays at his mothers on Walnut Street in Cobourg. Babs is still with woman and has a kid. Babs number is 885-1609 Mother's # 372-9733. Faith Doyle is Babs "ole lady". Babs is ruled by Faith Doyle who is very down on bikers.

March 19th., 7:38 p.m. called Merv, arranged meeting for Monday March 23rd. 2:00 p.m. Merv Blaker - north at 45, Cobourg, 12 miles north, come to a little village called Fenella, Community Centre on East side - 200 yds. turn left,- Rice Lake Rd. Route A. Merv lives at end - Stop sign, Merv is SW corner, green house, old Brown Camaro, house and garage green.

March 19, 1992 - interview with Mick Lowe

- Galbraith went to Cambridge. Rolly Sauve knew Galbraith.

- Doug Peart, in the Pinball room.

- Rick Sauve was with Blaker, with Gillespie

- someone came over and said "are we going to do something about the " Fat Fucker" (????)

- Gillespie's statement gave lst rate ID on Comeau as gunman

- Gillespie was in cop shop hour later (actually at 2:05 according to transcript)

- Gillespie was in Oshawa, his number in Oshawa was --

- Terry O'Hara Feb. 12/86 - said go for Gillespie

- Dave Hills, Bartender

- Reilly, Port Hope P.O. - legal docs weighed 3l pounds.

Rod Stewart 885-8764 Port Hope

Called Mick Lowe 1-705-969-7213

Mick called Rod Stewart - friend of Mick's is in a theatre group, says Rod Stewart is an Actor.

- he is a contractor, he was on the council, he seems legit. He was at the bar on legitimate business.

Helen Mitchell - things about her testimony - she talked about white running shoes

- once you know Hoffman wasn't there you have to ask about

- it was a peculiarity about Hoffman the cops knew about.

- never asked anyone about gun "Sam froze me out."

- I remember seeing colour photos in Terry O'Hara's file. Photos of Matiyek.

-"I thought it had lower down pockets"

- O'Hara has pictures

- saw pictures of the...

- there is some conflict between Sauve and Comeau

- did you ever suspect everyone is lying? "No"

- some allowances have to be made for the witness recollection, faults for all of them

- why didn't they leave the gun there

- Did Rode(?)

- McReelis was at the scene 11:10

Documentary film maker Gord Harrison 613-521-5510

- there is one really good interior shot

- Kerbel wasn't helpful to Mick Lowe

- Bruce Affleck was helpful.

- Kathy Cotgrave, Gayle Thompson, Lawrence Leon

- Gillespie - told Mick to kiss off

- Roger Davey - gave Mick a sworn affidavit saying he wasn't on phone to Sauve

- Rick Gailbraith

Mick Lowe's Interviews:

- McReelis turned down Mick Lowe

- Linda Leon - overheard at bowling alley saying Lawrence shot his own van.

- Kathy Cotgrave

- Gayle Thompson

- Lawrence Leon

- Gillespie

- Roger Davie

- Rick Galbraith

- one of the reasons

- Retard(?) Horner hated Matiyek - Horner

- Lawrence Leon came to give evidence one day before trial

- How did shotgun fall to Leon?

- someone said McReelis's wife was having relations with Van Harlem

- David Gillespie in 1986 was still being hastled(?) by SCMC.

March 20, 1992 - Port Hope

11:45 - set up photo observation at Masonic Hall shot video film

12:30 - Julie Powell arrived on opposite side of street at 49 Toronto Rd.

1:15 -- filmed Queen's from rear. Noted vehicle 712 CMC in Rod Stewart Construction parking spot, also 657 HFT. Rod Stewart's truck OF3 979.

2:55 -- At Cobourg, picked up trial transcript.

FROM TRANSCRIPT

There is a reference to Shortreed and to Kelly as having given some information to PC Kenneth Wilson. The thing was stopped in its tracks.

We set out to find SHortreed, who as it turns out, is an old friend of our firm's Larry Wilson.

Doug Shortreed, Port Hope 885-4184. Doug retired from Port Hope P.D. 7 years ago. He was once at 32 Div. Metro.

- Shortreed was involved in the police investigation

- his partner may have been Constable Kelly

- Kenneth Wilson called Douglas "Shorty"

- did anyone dust for prints?

- who moved the gun?

Contacted Merv Blaker, 352-3258

- North on Hwy. 45 at Cobourg, go 12 miles north to Fenella, go past community centre on East side, 200 yards then turn left on Rice Lake Rd. Route A.

- Merv lives at end at stop sign, SW corner - green house, old brown Camero, house and garage are green.

Office clerk: I called 416-436-2069 and asked for Helen, the gentleman who answered asked who was calling, I said, "It's June, and I'm tring to track down a friend of mine - Helen Mitchell". He said, "She's in Scarborough", he then asked "What's her dancing name?" I replied "Misty Anne". He said I was referring to Helen Beamer (Beemer?) and that she was working in a Scarborough factory "that's all we know". He also said that she is not dancing anymore.

Bell Inquiries - no listings in Toronto area under Helen Beemer or Beamer.

- one listing for Helen Mitchell, 757-5381, 2703 St. Clair Ave. E.(wrong one)

T.T.C. Info. says this address is in the St. Clair/O'Connor Dr. area.

Research Helen Mitchell.

During the trial in September of 1979 and at the material(?) time, Helen Mitchell said she lived with a Donna Sunday; that would have been in the late 1970's. We know a Debbie Sunday who works at the Grill at the Walton. There is a D.Sunday at Port Hope 885-7497

March 21/92 - Donna Sunday is now Donna Larkman. Her number is unpublished. She lives in Cobourgh, her mother's number is 885-9438.

Helen Mitchell (Misty Anne)

-"Helen" who owns Tanglewoods knows Helen Mitchell well.

- realy ugly gap between front teeth

- blonde to brown hair, long to shoulder

- 5'6"

- home made tatoos

- about 33 to 34

- small titted

- all ugly tatoos

- skinny

Warkworth 1-705-924-2210.

416-841-1277, 5549

775-2509, 538-2168, 778-4409

Note:

Wilson was flagged down outside hotel, not phoned. He was flagged at 11:08 p.m. Flagged down by Rick Galbraith.

March, 1992 Met with Carol Crosby and Betty King OBSERVATIONS; CS Back in July, 1988/89 Carol Crosbie was intercepted - RCMP - she was on her way to Dayton, she had prescription drugs - one Copper said "Well, she wanted a fucking conspiracy" Taped interview on video tape.

- four to five months later (?)

- full name -- date of birth

March 20, 1992, 7:40 - Comeau on phone.

- Jeff McLeod is talking to Mr. X. "This is the straight goods."

- getting hold of Jeff Sat. or Sunday.

- Mr. W. will talk to Jeff over the weekend

- drive to Cobourg, just 60 miles

- the only reason L.C. never mentioned it was because he never wanted to rember names.

- Jeff knows how important.

Reading the Transcripts.

Crime Scene

- Kenneth Wilson 1st. witness referred to Shortreed and Kelly

- Wakely and McReelis

- Dave MacDonald was his partner (Wilson's)

Oct. 18, 1978 - Wilson

11:06 - radio call

11:08 - Rick Galbraith stopped cruiser

11:25 - identification officer arrived (Wakely). Wakely ordered area sealed off

1:05 a.m. - Wilson left hotel and went to police station til 6:00 a.m.

2:05 - Took statement from David Gillespie Peart was there

Witness #2 - Dr. John H. Whiteside, Pathologist

(1) non-lethal shoulder wound, grazed left side of jaw, underside of mandible - .7 by .6 cm. hole.

- Arm raised horizontally produced a 'pointer' line from the shoulder wound to the jaw, exiting near horizontally after deflecting inside - exited at right side of neck after hitting Adam's apple.

(2) non-lethal - back of skull travelling through skull, breaking bone apart - 3 lead frags. 1 copper frag. were left in skull, four inches from in to out, exit was beneath right ear - entry 1.2 x 1 cm. hole.

(3) lethal - 1 centimeter hole entry in front of left ear, travelling at straight angle to the front, contacted skull on far side and deflected back about 1 inch without fracturing skull on far side.

Bullets were jacketed 9 mm. soft point, fired from revolver rifled to Colt specs. - no powder marks on wound - blood alcohol level of BM l49 mg., urine sample stained 234 mg.

Wakely removed the weapon from body of B.M. at hospital, Peterborough. Wakley removed B.M.'s boots.

Witness #3 - Corp. James Howard Moore - O.P.P. witness - called on set 19 at 12:15

1:15 a.m - on scene, as another officer on, met Wakely at back door

5:30 a.m.- took photographs

- ante-room created by partition around John Street door

- found bullet fragments, 3 around 1/8 to 1/4 inch

- all fragments given to Wakely

- said pistol was deep in left breast pocket.

Partition around door P.P. 200/280, Exhibit 9/11, - only one door.

Mark on Wall PP201 - 40 inches from ground (15 bricks) - White mark on brick .5 in. across.

Bullet fragments PP 202 - three lead fragments.

Forensic could not identify frags.

(Matiyek's body movement would likely have shifted gun out of pocket when he went down if indeed gun was in an upper breast pocket.)

Moore's photographs indicated changes to the crime scene.

Moore's evidence suggests crime scene visible from pin ball room.

Crime scene through night:

- Dave MadDonald/ Constable Wakely/ Corp. Moore/ Leo Powell/Janitor.

P.P. 226 - 3 PIN BALL MACHINES

- said gun had 8 in clip, none in chamber.

FORENSIC

Re: Regina vs McLeod et al

File No. 6021-78

REPORT OF THE CENTRE OF FORENSIC SCIENCES

For: Mr. G.F. Bonnycastle, Q.C., Crown Attorney

860 William St., Cobourg, Ont. K9A 3A9

Reference: HOMICIDE - W.J. Matiyek (V)

Date: 5 Feb/79

Copies to:

Det. John Beacock, Waterloo Regional Police

Insp. E. MacDougal, OPP CIB, Toronto

Dr. J. Whiteside, Peterboro Civic Hosp.

Const. W.H. Wakeley, Port Hope Police Force

Dr. Tesluk, Port Hope, Ont.

Reported by: Finn Nielsen, Firearms Examiner

Continuity:

Items F1 - F12 were received at the Centre on October 23, 1978.

Items F13- F17 and F18 were received at the Centre on October 25, 1978.

ITEM

F1 "Found on floor"

DESCRIPTION

One envelope containing a piece of fibre-like material

RESULTS OF EXAMINATION

This does not appear to be an ammunition component.

ITEM

F3 "Found on floor"

DESCRIPTION

One envelope containing one small lead-like fragemnt

RESULTS OF EXAMINATION

F3 Results of Examination: This fragment is of no identification value.

ITEM

F4 "Found on floor"

DESCRIPTION

One envelope containing one small lead-like fragment

RESULTS OF EXAMINATION

F4 This fragment is of no identification value

ITEM

F6 "Brain of Deceased"

DESCRIPTION

One envelope containing a lead-like fragment

RESULTS OF EXAMINATION

F6 This appears to be part of the core of a jacketed projectile, however, it is of no specific identification value.

ITEM

F7 "Brain of Deceased"

DESCRIPTION

One envelope containing a copper-like fragment

RESULTS OF EXAMINATION

F7 This is aportion of the base of a jacketed 9mm calibre projectile.

ITEM

F8 "Brain of Deceased"

DESCRIPTION

One envelope containing one jacketed projectile

RESULTS OF EXAMINATION

F8 This is a jacketed 9mm calibre soft point projectile. It was fired from a revolver rifled to Colt specifications.

ITEM

F9 "Skull of Deceased"

DESCRIPTION

One envelope containing one copper-like fragment

RESULTS OF EXAMINATION

F9 This is part of the jacket portion of a projectile.

ITEM

F10 "Worn by Deceased"

DESCRIPTION

One bag with a red jacket in it

RESULTS OF EXAMINATION

F10 Apparent projectile damage was noted in the wearers upper left shoulder. No close range firearms discharge residues were detected.

ITEM

F12 "Worn by Deceased"

DESCRIPTION

One bag with one blue shirt in it

RESULTS OF EXAMINATION

F12 As in 'F10'

ITEM

F13 "Found on Deceased"

DESCRIPTION

One .32/7.65 mm Semi-automatic pistol Make: Ortgies, Model: - , Serial No. 116132

RESULTS OF EXAMINATION

F13 This pistol was test fired. A tendency to misfiring was noted due to a light firing pin fall. The unfired cartridges are suitable for use in it.

ITEM

F17 "Found at 245 Victoria Street"

DESCRIPTION

One container with an unfired 9mm parabellum calibre cartridge in it

RESULTS OF EXAMINATION

F17 The projectile loaded in this cartridge is different from that removed from the Deceased.

ITEM

F18 "Found at 404 1/2 King Street"

DESCRIPTION

One container with an unfired 9mm parabellum calibre cartridge in it

RESULTS OF EXAMINATION

F18 As in 'F17'

REPORT OF THE CENTRE OF FORENSIC SCIENCES

For: Mr. Howard Kerbel, Holiday Inn Downtown, London, Ontario

Supplementary Lab. File No. 6021-78 FA

Date: November 1, 1979

Reference: Homicide. DECEASED; MATIYEK, William John

Copies to:

C.J. Meinhart, Esq. Crown Attorney, Court House, London, Ontario.

Reported by: F.Nielsen, Firearms Examiner.

Continuity:

The following items were received at the Centre on October 31st, 1979

ITEM

F8 "Brain of Deceased"

DESCRIPTION

One envelope containing one jacketed projectile

RESULTS OF EXAMINATION

This is a jacketed 9MM calibre soft point projectile. It was fired from a revolver rifled to Colt specifications.

ITEM

F19 "Removed from Comeau"

DESCRIPTION

One box containing one jacketed projectile

RESULTS OF EXAMINATION

This is a jacketed 9MM calibre soft point projectile. It was fired from the same firearm which fired Item "F8".

Witness #4 - William Harry Wakely

- arrived at 11:40

- McReelis was there

- 5 persons at bar, 3 Female 2 Male

- asked them to leave after putting on more lights

- FOUND BROKEN GLASS

- said bullet mark on wall was 15 bricks, 43-44 inches up on West Wall.

- met Whiteside, Moore, et al plus Mr. Don Allison "funeral director" from Port Hope.

- Matiyek wore red and black bush jacket, blue shirt

- Lounge was renovated between shooting and trial

- Wakely removed B.M.'s boots and found nothing unusual

- met Gillespie at 3:10 a.m.

- spoke to Jamie Hanna at 7:30 p.m.

- no finger prints taken.

P.P. 248 - Lounge measurements

North to South 89 feet, East to West 39 feet

Shuffleboard 28'x18'9"

3 Pin Ball Machines

42 ft. from South wall to door of Pin ball room

Trial drawings do not accurately reflect number of chairs and tables.

- B.M.'s table 32 ft from Bar corner.

P.P. 289 / P.P.283

- Wakely found the gun in B.M.'s jacket (on Oct. 19 - later in morning) which had been stripped from his body and with his shirt was piled on top of his (stomach) body as it lay on a guerney at Peterborough hospital, after trip from Port Hope hospital and Port Hope morgue. The body was naked from the waist up.

- Wakely said about why he checked B.M.'s clothes; "I rember the Corporal (Moore) mentioning that we should be looking for a gun because..." Meinhardt cut him off.

Forensic Centre in Toronto said about 3 bullet fragments found on floor near B.M.'s body:

(1) this does not appear to be an ammunition product

(2) this fragment is of no identification value

(3) this fragment is of no identification value.

BOOK 2 OF TRANSCRIPT

Donald J. Dennis "Biker Squad"

Bikers identified by witnesses: (apart from accused)

Sequin

Dwayne Wemp

Robert Chalmers

Ray Snyker * Kitchener

Randy Goebel

Everett

Ertle

Richard Smith

Smutley

Michael Anderson - (Stewart?)

Denis Crossield - "?

Frank Martin - "?

Walter High - "?

David Flood

Cousins

Goobie

- none of the pics ID'd by Rod Stewart were among the accused.

- Constable Kenneth Wilson and Constable Dave MacDonald

- October 18, 1978, 11:06 got Radio call, 11:08 saw Rick Galbraith

- front door entry of 2 cops

- saw circle of people at exit to John Street

- no search of body area was done at first

Re: Mitchell, from transcript.

From the time of shooting to time of trial, the Queen's was renovated.

Helen Mitchell's testimony indicates she knew the Lounge AFTER THE SHOOTING!

Note to File

NEED A WITNESS WHO SAW GUN (B.M.)

Sue Foote was 23 in l979

Other Witnesses:

Sharon Brown

Cheryl Nastuk

Douglas Peart

Jack Sunmore

Peter Murdoch

Peter La Brash

Gary Fox

Cathy Fair

James Castinette

Jerry Meretsky

Gord Harrison, documentary film maker in Ottawa, 613-521-5510

Helen Anne Mitchell, d.o.b. April 1954

Whitby, Ontario. Phone: 686-3560 (unpublished)

Stage name: "Misty Anne"

- David Mitchell, Helen's brother, 885-5187

- Vera Mitchell is her step-mother

- Father deceased

- Patty Mitchell is Helen's daughter. Patty was put in a foster home after Vera tried to raise the child. The youngster was too "wild" for Vera to handle.

Helen was arrested for drunk driving last year (1991). The year before she was in jail for something else.

1-416-686-3560 Helen Mitchell's phone number.

Helen on March 22/92 was taking her daughter on a home visit.

Glen Lyttle was Helen's common-law boyfriend in the mid to late 70's. His # 885-9708. She referred to him in her testimony.

She lived with a person named Donna Sunday in Port Hope during the 1970's. Donna Sunday is now Donna Larkman and she lives in Cobourg. Her phone number

is unlisted. Her mother's number in Port Hope is 885-9438.

Another D. Sunday (possibly Debbie) working at Grill at Walton, lives in Port Hope # is 885-7497. She is Donna Sunday's sister-in-law.

Bill Lavoie, lives in Warsaw, near Peterborough. Mick saw him last October - Lavoie was in a bad car accident and has had many operations.

Mick Lowe believes that Meinhardt believed Lorne Campbell's statement.

Lorne's side of the statement was that he sat and watched Meinhardt rolling his eyes and having the jury eat out of his hands. Meinhardt had a theory that there was a van full of Choice at the bar.

Rick Sauve said I never talked to Davey.

Comeau talked to Hanna and told her his name.

Why was Avisson asking who was the guard - coming to them

Randy Koehler - cousin of Tee Hee Hoffman

Roger Davey lied on the stand.- Roger Davey perjured himself by saying he talked to Rick Sauve when Sauve called to say he wouldn't be at work - Sauve talked to Roger's wife. Cops had phone records. They knew Rick called Davey's home. The cops threatened Roger Davey with charge of accessory after the fact. Davey's testimony (perjured) suggested that Rick Sauve was calling from a victory party

Learned from Mick Lowe re: GAYLE THOMPSON

Gayle Thompson - Qualicum Beach, Vancouver Island (604)742-2226

- hastle with Brideau, Jones, Matiyek

- Jones - Cobourg, Randy's ex brother-in-law.

- Fred & Bill beat on Brian

- Brian says, next time I see you you will be at end of shotgun

- Brian called Choice

- Matiyek was sitting in almost empty hotel

- worse to watch a show

- Bill was warm, kind, generous man. Never had a steady woman in his life. He was a bully to a point. Matiyek was good with kids. He was taken advantage of. - Retard once threatened Gayle Thompson.

- Gayle believed some 30 Choice were in the room that night.

- Jones in pool room

- Bronson was at smoke machine

- Gayle says she remembers old man.

- Helen Mitchell was there and went to bar for drink of water. She was famous for coming in with no money for drinks.

- there was times when Leon as in bar.

- Gayle wouldn't sign statement

- Rennie Proulx shot at Leon's car, his wife worked at Davidson Rubber and was a cousin of Randy K.

- Dawn Allen - followed Gayle home (Bill Lavoie says) a woman associated with Davey, stripper at Queen's

- she resented Leo for leaving

- after 11:00 a lot would come in

- Cotgrave was cashing in her float

- Kathy told Powell to call police when Choice came in

- Gayle didn't see horseshoe.

- everyone moved behind Gayle

- table across from Bill had six Choice including Merv

- Gayle called Gord to tell Gord shooting had happened

- Kerbel crossed Thompson and cut her off

- Kerbel cost Choice the case - Gayle Thompson

- 8 years later she believed Comeau was the gunman

Q.: did you ever talk to Rod Stewart?

A.: "No, I called his place and left messages on his answering machine and never got anywhere"

Q.: did you ever talk to anyone about him?

A.: "Yes I did"

Q.: what did you learn about him? We're just setting up to meet with Rod Stewart and we're doing just everything we can to learn about him.

A.: "OK I'll tell you a very interesting thing about him that never got into the book, it turned out that we had a mutual friend, I didn't know this when I started out, I think it might even have been after the book came out but a friend of mine in Toronto knew Rod Stewart, and you may recall he did a very theatrical performance on the witness stand which I think the judges even referred to almost theatrically, well it turns out he's in a theatre group, he is an actor, the Bertel Brecht theatre group in Port Hope. So there's a good reason why he appeared so theatrical, you remember he broke down on the witness stand, yes well he is an actor in more ways than one."

Q.: is Rod Stewart a rounder?

A.: "I don't know, I couldn't say about that, you know he is a contractor, he was on the council, he seemed pretty legit, but I don't think he was the best witness, he was the one who came up with the Horseshoe with all the guys standing around which I think was somewhat damaging, although how much credibility the jury put in his testimony I'm not sure, maybe he's a rounder, I don't know, I think he was there on legitimate business unlike some of the other people, I don't think he was there to buy or sell hot goods, I think he was there like he said he was, to get a bid on renovating the place."

"You know what - after you mentioning Helen Mitchell the other day, it all came back to me, the thing about her testimony that made me realize that she was a put up job, and even surprised me in a sense that the Crown would put the words in her mouth, she is the one who gave the testimony about the white running shoes, you know about Davie Hoffman, now of course once you know that Hoffman wasn't there then where did all this stuff about the white running shoes come from? That was a complete put up job and it was obvious, but they got away with it. That was the thing that was striking to me about Helen Mitchell"

Q.: is it possible that the person named Doug or Dave or whatever it was, who looks a little like Hoffman, who was there, is it possible that he wore running shoes and that that was also a similarity?

A.: "No, what the Crown did was, early on they let evidence in terms of Hoffman's physical description that he always wore white running shoes, which he did you know most unusual for a biker who usually stomps around in big boots, but he for some reason preferred running shoes,so they let this evidence for a purpose, and that was when they put Helen Mitchell on the stand to crimp the idea of Hoffman once and for all, yea she remembered seeing a guy who looked like Hoffman and he had on white running shoes so the jury thought Aha set -match and the guy was never there, so her whole testimony was obviously she was fed it, she didn't see him and she didn't see white running shoes either, but no I don't think the guy she mistook him for had white running shoes I think that was a peculiarity about Hoffman that the Crown knew about which Hoffman himself admitted on the stand - Yes he did prefer running shoes in season and so I guess that added to part of the ID. Once I heard that she wasn't even in the hotel, which guys told me that she wasn't, that became pretty obvious to me."

Q.: We're having some difficulty understanding how it is that no one looked at Matiyek's gun until it had actually, the body got to the Peterborough Hospital on the l9th. and at that time, I think it was Const. Wakely picked up the clothing off the cadavers belly and "Oh look what I found". Did you ever ask anyone about that, likes cops or any one?

A.: "No, but the Port Hope, like Sam froze me out and I didn't think I was going to get any cooperation from Wilson, but don't forget the body went two places it went first from the hotel to the Port Hope Hospital "

Q.: and then to the morgue

A.: "and then to Peterborough I think"

Q.: it went to the morgue first

A.: "which was where - Port Hope? I thought it went to two different places"

Q.: it went first to the hospital, then to the morgue then to Peterborough it went to the morgue overnight and then Wakely returned in the morning and escorted the body to the hospital in Peterborough, there was a local undertaker involved, remember him,

A.: No. You know this much I remember seeing colour photos in O'Hara's file and these would be police photos which I don't if they were introduced as exhibits, and he was lying there fully clothed, that's how I was able to describe exactly what he was wearing in the book, he was still fully clothed at that point." "You know who I think would be interesting to interview and I never had the opportunity and that is who drove the body to the local morgue or hospital or wherever it was. There he was on the slab, deader than a door nail, fully clothed and the gun, well"

Q.: how did the gun survive the fall in the upper left hand pocket of one of those bush jackets?

A.: "there you go, upper left hand, upper left hand and who would put a gun in their left hand pocket" - a Right handed person "Yea but an "upper" pocket, Q.: who in the world would ever carry a gun in their

A.: as far as I know there are no lower pockets in those types of jackets

"Oh yes I think so, I think there's pockets...Oh"

Q.: as far as I know, we've checked it out on the clothing rack, we just don't know about that

A.: "Well, the way that the guys always describe it is that he was pointing the gun through a garment, in a pocket, I thought it was the kind of bush jacket that has pockets lower down below his breast pockets, like side pockets to put your hands in to keep them warm, now that you mention it, I can't remember from the pictures that O'Hara has whether that was true or not, because the shirt as I recall it was what we up here call doeskin(?)people down there call it a bush jacket, it's what we call a doeskin a green and black (sic) checked shirt "

Q.: its red

A.: " I thought it was green man, I saw the pictures "

Q.: red

A.: "did I say that in the book"

Q.: it clearly defines it as being red in the court room

A.: "well my memory could be faulty, but I saw pictures of the man fully clothed and I can't figure out the gun either, that's a very interesting chain of possession that gun"

Q.: the problem is we have two stories - contrast each other l80 degrees

A.: "what are the two stories?"

Q.: first of all that the gun was held in a lower pocket but that the gun was visible; secondly that the gun was held at Sauve; Lorne Campbell's testimony indicated that the gun was reached for by Matiyek with his right hand from an upper pocket; the testimony of Wakely the evidence man, he said that the gun was found in the upper left pocket, deep in the pocket. Its a pretty small weapon, is that German make of weapon.

A.: "that small eh, because its not a very large pocket, I think there may be some conflict between Rick and Gerry's remembrance, which to me, whenever we reenacted it across the table in the prison, it seemed to me they were always gesturing with their left hand, but I describe it in the book, I forget now, and it was only partially visible don't forget, he showed them the top of the gun and then aimed it through the clothing"

Q.: did you ever get the impression that they are all lying?

A.: "Ha ha ha , no, no, and Campbell remembered him going across his body"

Q.: no I don't mean all in the sense of the bikers, I mean the cops and the robbers, you know, -- both sides of the cast

A.: "no"

Q.: I mean is it just a case of bad witness evidence/identification?

A.: "Well I think, leaving the cops aside, in the sense that Gary and Rick were eye witnesses just like the Crown witnesses in the bar, their memories are just as faulty and erred with all the frailty of ID and recollection of any of the crown witnesses, I think you have to make allowances for that, that something unexpected happened in a very very short period of time." "I think you have to make some allowances, as I'm prepared to do for the crown, some allowances for the guys as well, so Campbell doesn't remember it in exactly the way Sauve remembers it, I don't read too much into that other than they were no better or worse as eye witnesses than anyone. But I think the Matiyek gun is really... and you know we went through the scenario last time of, why did they leave it there, why didn't they cover that up, and the whole question of the missing ninth bullet and you said - well the crown couldn't be sure that these guys would be called - but you know what, if they had ditched that evidence and even if the guys had been called and said "he threatened us" with his gun - well if there was no gun, well the jury was clearly disposed not to believe their evidence anyway and I don't see what the risk would have been to have lost Matiyek's gun, but they didn't and that is really surprising to me."

Q.: - but they buried it in the coat pocket, which indicates it's not self-defence

A.: " You know what I wonder is did it fall out in the course of moving the body out of the room, into the ambulance, out of ambulance, into the morgue."

Q.: or did Stewart, Rod Stewart put the gun in the pocket when he attended the body giving first aid?

A.: "Hmm, that's a question, that's a possibility."

A.: - or did Wilson move it or did Wakely move it?

"Right, right"

Q.: - one more thing, McReelis was at the scene at ll:l0

A.: "right, right, Ok, so then l5-20 min. after the shooting, but by the way, the other critical thing about the Matiyek weapon to remember is that if everything was legit and it really was in the upper left hand pocket throughout the whole incident it wasn't self-defence, right, the guys all knew he had a gun, they all knew that and they knew it right through and it didn't come out in the evidence until well into the trial, but they always knew he had a gun this is their story so that tends to concern their point of view, now how it got to be in the upper left hand pocket that seems to be the question, it could have been I suppose McReelis if it was left around the scene and somebody picked it up on the scene and stuck it in there..."

Q.: imagine this Mick, the grazing of the garment and his left arm - the cadavers' arm - by raising the arm forensic/the pathologist by raising his arm were able to create a "pointer" line on one of the wounds, the wound that grazed the underside of the lower mandible then entered the flesh, deflected 90 degrees actually more like ll0 degrees, hit the adam's apple again deflected and came out horizontally, the entry indicates that... the pointer line indicates that the deceased's arm was raised -- in a fairly high position, which would indicate at least an elbow at l80 degrees to the floor

A.: "so you know what was happening there, I bet, he tried to defend himself"

Q.: it sounds like he put his arm up, the question is did the arm have a gun in it? and where did the gun come from, was the gun always there? The testimony of the two people sitting at the table indicates that the gun was held left-handed in Matiyek's hand - that coroberates, now it would also be corroborated by the other testimony, for example that there were only 8 shots in the gun there was none in the chamber; secondly that there was no physical evidence of a 32 cal. having been fired, there were particles of 9 mm. around but there was no 32 cal. which would indicate that Matiyek did not fire and if you put all this together, this is just a scenario which is indicated by the evidence, Matiyek having the gun in his left hand, raised his arm to fire, literally straight out to point the weapon at the shooter, the gun was not cocked. Matiyek was saying in his conversation that he had nine friends, Matiyek may have thought he had put one into the chamber. See in order to take this little hand gun and have nine shots in it you have to put a clip in the gun you have to cock it, take the clip out and put another shot in, or make sure that there are eight in the clip, the clip holds only eight. When you cock the gun by shoving the slide back and letting it go you allow the spring in the clip to force a cartridge into place, a live round, you know eight take away one leaves seven, pull the clip down and inject one more shot, there's the scenario - one that's indicated by the evidence, however contrary to that is the defendant's own statement, Lorne Campbell's statement saying that Matiyek went for a gun with his right hand.

A.: "Yea, he was reaching across his body"

Q.: which would make sense if the weapon were in his right hand

A.: "and by the way no one ever said that he had his left arm up, the gun in it, cocked, ready to shoot whoever was across the table which would have been Rick I think"

Q.: OK well that is a micro second event

A.: "Well I know but I think Rick would remember, don't you think, of course he said he never took his eyes off Matiyek's eyes you know all the time on Matiyek's eyes"

Q.: Rick's behaviour indicates that he is at odds with the whole situation, that there is something that he knows that obviates him perpetuating the story that he has.. he hasn't perpetuated that story in any great way. He more or less says that he didn't really see what happened and that may be entirely true but its improbable, improbable.

A.: "Well what he says is, when you say to him - who shot him, did you see the shooter he says no; you know now he is in no rush being in the situation that he's in, in prison, to implicate Lorne, so that may be part of it"

Q.: he also had his back to Lorne, by all accounts

A.: "Yea that's right"

Q.: except when Lorne came up to do the shooting, Lorne had to have been within Sauve's eyesight, impossible otherwise because Comeau was directly beside Matiyek and the exit of the bullet was l80 degrees, entry was roughly parallel to the John St. wall, so the shot was fired with, whoever it was, almost physically pushed right up against the enshrouding wall which created an alcove by that door, he had to be pressed up against it.

A.: "Ok but put yourself in Rick's place: you've got this guy across the table your not used to gun play in any way at all, the guy is you know he's snake you know he's drunk and he's already menaced you with the gun and like Rick said you probably wouldn't take your eyes off his eyes, even when something was happening peripherally, like Campbell approaching, you'd be watching Matiyek I think, hoping to have some warning before he shot you and you'd be totally focused on that and this other very quick, you know I think it would be like step-step-step, bang-bang-bang.

Q.: but still, if you were to look at someone across a 22 in. table, even sitting back your greatest distance would be about 6 ft. from the person, now if you look ahead and fixate your eyes on the person's face directly in front of you, your rods in your eyeball in your brain is processing information far better on the peripheral area than it is on the centre, any movement will catch your attention more so and your vision is 20 ft. to the left and to the right easily, the gunman was 3 ft. away.

A.: "It may very well be, I don't think you saw Lorne coming, it may very well be that he saw Lorne getting set to fire a split section or during the actual firing, which was a split second, but then you know he is very very specific about seeing Matiyek's head and what happened to Matiyek's face and the way he slumped over to his right and all that, I think that he knew that it was Lorne either he saw it himself or as soon as they got into the car and everybody started to say what the fuck happened, who did what, they all knew who did it including those who saw it and those who didn't, they all knew, of course that's a little different from saying, yes I saw Lorne shoot and he doesn't want to implicate anybody, being in prison and being considered a solid guy and so I put all that together and either he's telling the truth or he's fudging it slightly ..."

Q.: did you ever hear Comeau getting a little upset that I was wondering if Comeau wasn't the gunman -- I'm sorry, if Campbell wasn't the gunman, did you ever hear about that?

A.: "No, although I might have told him that, I don't remember, I might have told him that theory, I can't remember, because when you and I talked about that then I might have."

Q.: sure, see there's nothing to indicate that indeed Campbell was, you know here's the theory, suppose it was one of the other guys and a straw pole taken of the guys who weren't there at the trial, who were there at the bar and only one would say OK I'll stand up and say I did it.

A.: "Yea I know but... You know he confessed to the Globe and Mail eh, I mean have you seen that story, it only appeared in the one edition and there was no protection of anything there."

Q.: Yea I read it, he was in Newmarket.

A.: "That was Timothy Appleby, that's the guy that I might give the story to if and when you decide you want to go public, I think he might be our best bet."

Q.: You see the problem with telling lies is that you don't know when the witness has stopped telling lies.

A.: "Sure, I was showing my tell (?)

Q.: Your dealing with people who are habitual liars, you know when talking to authority, its part of the code, its acceptable to do that.

A.: "Yea but I didn't find that, you know to a certain extent I could be called an authority too and a part of the system and so on and I found that politicians would lie to me, in my 20 years of reporting all kinds of people would lie to me, but one thing I found about dealing with bikers is that they wouldn't, that it was not - like they were very straight up and they would get uncomfortable when they should have lied."

Q.: Campbell was lying on the stand.

A.: "There was certainly times when he was playing fast and loose with the truth, he was skating all around the place, that's right, and I dissect that all very carefully in the book and explain what I thought his motivation was."

Q.: I think its pretty clear, he was stuck between a rock and a hard place, he couldn't really tell the whole tale. I think we pretty well know what happened there if we believe that Campbell was the gunman, not that it matters a hoot, but its helpful to decide the validity of other statements, you know knowing the truth and thats the problem. The other thing is that we are noticing that witnesses these kinds of truths are going to produce for us, have to be visited three and four times before they talk to us, which sounds like they are being well rehearsed.

A.: "Which characters are we talking about."

Q.: Some of the people who were in the bar but have never come forward.

"Weren't you going to meet with them yesterday."

Q.: It got put off because Jeff McLeod is setting and Gary's schedule was more optimistic and ambitious than is Jeff's.

A.: "So your working with Jeff?"

Q.: Were working with all of them, there is only two that I haven't met face to face and that's Hurren and Blaker. Merv and I are getting together tomorrow actually.

A.: "Good, say hello for me."

Q.: I will do that, I quite like him, I've spoken to him and I've talked around him and I know everything about him, that's the way we work, we don't talk to anyone until we've run everything on him. He looks like a real square-shooting citizen, you know what I mean.

A.: "Yep, yep he is one of the reasons why a lot of people feel that this was not planned and deliberate."

Q.: There is a thousand and one reasons to believe that. Of the people who were there who were not identified, did you ever hear or learn that Dwayne Wemp was around?.

A.: "Oh Wow, no, I just know the name because it came up in the IDs."

Q.: Oh really, it came up eh?

A.: "Oh yes, he was identified."

Q.: What about Ray Snyder, the old-timer?

A.: "Yea, he was confused with somebody else, now this was all in the book, lets get the book and their names were all in the index I'm quite sure hold on and I'll get the book. Have you got the book?"

Q.: No I don't, just my notes, I read the book a long time ago you know. Our biggest fear of course and something that is just professional standard among us is that we don't allow ourselves to be swayed one way or the other in an investigation because you come up with too many solid hypothesis and you tend to go out to prove them.

A.: "Never mind that, just go with the facts that are in here."

Q.: Just because they are in the book doesn't make them fact.

A.: "Well OK try this one on, on Friday about the time the second Kitchener club house raid was getting under way Rod Stewart knew the line up, he pointed to pictures of Bernard Baland, Joe Hatos and Dwayne Wemp, but seemed so uncertain that Denis, you know that Stewart ID'd as vague.

Q.: He also identified Anderson, Crossfield, Martin, High and Flood, which is extraordinary, he managed to ID a large number of people, none of whom were among the accused. Some of them were there, I think at least one of them was there, but he identified so many, he picked all the club members just about.

A.: "And matched up with the other eye witnesses on virtually none. What was the other name you had?"

Q.: Ray Snyder. He was confused with the gunman, he's another old-timer eh? I remember him from way back when.

A.: "That's right, he's in the book four different times."

Q.: You talked to one of the guys who was there but not identified?

A.: "Yes"

Q.: Was he forthcoming?

A.: "Yea, yea, Ok it was Cathy Cotgrave, she identified Ray Snyder. 'the first was Ray Snyder a Satan's Choice from the Kitchener chapter, Cotgrave had pointed to Snyder and said that with a hat on he had looked just like the gunman'".

Q.: Did you know that Ray was there?

A.: "NO, Oh no she pointed at two pictures and said one of them could be the gunman, the first one was Snyder, the second was Comeau."

Q.: Yea, the pictures were terrible though.

A.: "I don't know, not all of them."

Q.: no, that's true, that's true

A.: " I have a big, I have a blow-up of this photo ID which is much better than the one in the book. OK, so you think Snyder was there?

Q.: Yea.

A.: "Wow, he was even in the club then?"

Q.: He's been around for a while. He was in the SCMC files as far as I know he is still in the club. I could be wrong, not that it matters.

A.: "Oh, here's the second Stewart pass 'Bronson, Crossfied, Martin, Flood, Anderson and High' other than Bronson the ID's didn't jibe with any other witness."

Q.: Too many Outlaw, yes three others of those you just mentioned are Outlaws as far as I can recall.

A.: "Oh yea; then 'Moreover Stewart failed to identify a single one of the photographs he'd selected just a week earlier'.. go figure. This time Cotgrave made no mention of Snyder's picture."

Q.: That's interesting.

A.: "She calls a picture of Comeau, this is Cotgrave again, could be trigger man, she came back with the same picture of Comeau a second time thought to be the trigger man this time she made no mention of Snyder's picture. Now of course there is also the matter of the ever changing photo arrays."

Q.: I just get so upset when I read that book, when I read the transcript book dealing with Constable Donald Denis's testimony. I get so upset because it is so unprofessional.

A.: "Yes, it must drive you nuts."

Q.: and the other thing about the gun, put that book across a 30 ft. room, I read it over and over and over again and it is so, I can't believe in the integrity of this justice sitting on the bench, not to have questioned that thing when it was his nature to take a participatory role in the questioning

and yet he wouldn't question that, it is so faulty.

A.: "Question what? I'm sorry."

Q.: The number of hours between the time of the tenants of the police and the time that the gun was discovered.

A.: "Which would have been the next morning, right?"

Q.: It was late in the afternoon of the l9th. at the Peterborough hospital.

A.: "It probably just doesn't add up and never did"

Q.: I makes my blood pressure go up every time I refer to it, it is just so unkeeping with normal procedure, you see normal procedure would have been first of all to preserve the crime scene yes, and to determine how the crime scene had been altered by first aid attendees and so on and its pretty seldom that an ambulance driver would interfere with the crime scene, in this case Rod Stewart was the person allegedly giving first aid, we've been told other things, but I can't make head or tails of that because according to Wilson's testimony Rick Galbraith came out onto the street and then came into the bar with him at ll:08 and when he came in he discovered and so did McReelis at ll:l0 discovered that Stewart was attending at the body, giving first aid of some sort, I think the time of death was fixed at ll:l0 as well.

A.: "Which matches Stewart's own testimony, that he lept over chairs and tables to get to Matiyek as soon as everybody cleared and asked waitresses for towels, which towels I have a picture taken at the crime scene, bloody towels on the floor."

Q.: Something else we've done, we've photographed from the air and from the ground from every conceivable way the trip between the bar and the police station and are absolutely perplexed at how Julie Joncas and Leo Powell could

have left in the time that they did, gone to the police station and not stirred a response until ll:06 when apparently a call was put through to Wilson.

A.: "All the cars were out?

Q.: Wilson was, his l0-28 was very close, he got a call at ll:06 on the radio

from communications and he was intending to go direct to the police station, I'm not too sure of the nature of the call, we can through the access of information act I think grab the communication, but we actually have another way of doing that, I can't talk about it on the telephone but we have an insider. So, something is very wrong there in the statement of Joncas and Powell, I mean whatever else they did it had nothing to do with what was going on in the bar. It is just under 3 min. the walk from place A to place B.

A.: "What time did they say they left the bar?"

Q.: I forget, I think it was about quarter to ll, another thing too is that Campbell's testimony throws the times all out in terms of the time of arrival of the guys and all. Did you ever fix a good time of arrival?

A.: "No, no, I mean of course they arrived in different vehicles, in different entrances and at slightly different times, it was like quarter to or something, it was a rough approximation of when it was."

Q.: Another thing, he was shot within l5 min. of their arrival, which is a deathly fact against the defendants.

A.: "That it was planned and deliberate."

Q.: But the style was just outrageous.

A.: "Yea, but I don't have any quarrel with the l5 min. at all, and the time of death was ll:l0, what do you have as the actual time of shooting?"

Q.: The best I can do is around ll:00, it could be ll:0l or :02 somewhere in there. The significant factor I think is Rick Galbraith running out onto the street looking for a copper, it might have been 2 min.

A.: "He wasn't searching for a copper, he went to a pay phone in front of the hotel to call, looked out the window and there was the cop car on the corner, and then he ran out onto the street."

Q.: So you mean he was in the lounge?

A.: "He was in the lobby I believe."

Q.: Well there must have been a phone taken out of there since that time because there's no phone in there now.

A.: "I have 'Rick Galbraith was fumbling with a phone in the lobby when he spotted a cruiser through a lobby window...he ran onto the street waving his arms, it was ll:08 when Constables Kenneth Wilson and David MacDonald entered the bar'."

Q.: What time did you put that at? ll:08, yes, Wilson left and MacDonald stayed, Wilson then interviewed Gillespie at the police station much later.

A.: "Right, 6 min. after Wilson and MacDonald arrived, Bill Matiyek, what was left of him was carried out of the Queen's Hotel..."

Q.: Do you know by who?

A.: "It doesn't say, that's why in terms of the gun those guys should be interviewed, because I thought it just as probable - now you tell me what the procedure would be; you have a stiff lying on the floor, someone who is very near death, there has been a shooting clearly a crime of some sort, but clearly you would have to attend to him, he would have to be taken away that wouldn't be considered interference of the crime scene would it?"

Q.: That's true, but first of all you'd have to believe that some first aid could be administered and there is a natural propensity for people to believe that the deceased is not in fact deceased.

A.: "Although Stewart says he realized that his St. John's first aid training wasn't going to be much help, but by the way I was surprised that Matiyek's head did not seem, when I saw his corpse - the picture - I don't know it didn't look like John Kennedy's head it hadn't been blown apart, I was quite surprised at that."

Q.: A small calibre weapon.

A.: "You'd know more about that than I do and I think the picture was taken from the side, his right."

Q.: The worst damage, to eyeball anyway was at the rear, well it smashed through bone and actually it wouldn't be lethal.

A.: "Well anyway, so you pick up the body real fast, you take it out the door, now did the gun fall out on the floor of the hotel? - did the gun fall out on the way to the ambulance? - inside the ambulance? - coming out of the ambulance to the morgue, whatever? At what point do you search the body of he deceased normally in a crime? What's the procedure for that?

Q.: If you knew the deceased you might let that go.

A.: "They also probably would know that he tended to walk around armed."

Q.: Yea, and yet his weapon wasn't in the boot.

A.: "Or, it was in the boot and it was ditched."

Q.: But you said you talked to Lawrence Leon who had possession of the weapon.

A.: "Has it and I've seen it, held it, yep I know it because it has Bill Matiyek's name scratched on it."

Q.: How was Lawrence Leon to deal with?

A.: " Not bad, not bad, and you know it was amazing about what Lawrence Leon says after all these years was that he couldn't believe they'd kill him, kill him in that way. You know he knew that they were beefing, he knew that blood could flow, but he never in a million years thought that they were just going to waltz in there and waste Bill Matiyek. He had his own fantasy about being blown away on the side of the road or drive-by shooting, this or that after the event, but up until that time he was just stunned and shocked and of course freaked right out, but I thought it was really remarkable that he thought it almost out of character and certainly beyond anything he would expect."

Q.: It is somewhat extraordinary that the weapon wasn't discovered and its also extraordinary that it managed to maintain its position deep in that upper left breast pocket of Matiyek's bush jacket, because its of sufficient weight and the material is of sufficient 'slipperiness'.

Onald.: "What I honest to god believe happened, whatever pocket it was in originally, it fell out and somebody like the ambulance driver has picked it up and either thought 'Oh my god this could be pertinent' or sluffed it off completely and just shoved it into the first available pocket."

Q.: The other question is why wasn't the goddam gun finger printed?

A.: "Matiyek's gun? Why wasn't the crime scene?

Q.: Well they claim there was nothing there except porous and greasy material from which you can't pull prints too easily, there were glasses, there was broken glass on the floor.

A.: "There were glasses I think in the photos I have a picture of glasses sitting on tables in the corner still in the crime scene photographs."

Q.: So you have some of the crime scene photographs?

A.: "Yea, I got them from Terry O'Hara and he's got still more I just took a few, and I guess you'd be interested in those."

Q.: Are you able to duplicate those?

A.: "I only have the print."

Q.: Are you able to lend them to me?

A.: "I guess, I've been pretty generous about lending things out, I hope I get it all back, but why don't you come up? There's another reason to come up.

Q.: I'd like to, the problem is sparing the time at this juncture, were booked pretty solid but for the crime scene modeling those photographs would be helpful really, we do some fairly extensive crime scent modeling on our computers.

A.: "That's pretty good, do you do a little mock model of it?"

Q.: We've done a thousand permeations, were really worrried about the ballistic trajectory of the bullet.

A.: "What of the 3rd bullet, the one that went into Comeau."

Q.: All three, we don't know if it was the 3rd bullet that hit Comeau.

A.: "No, I see your point, what's really troublesome is where did it come from?"

Q.: It is driving us insane because there are certain impossibilities here, you know obviously there is some movement and contortion of the bodies, for example Comeau would have at least withdrawn somewhat in shock.

A.: "You know Mike I'm afraid your too late, I think I've already loaned them, I think I loaned them to the documentary film maker Gord Harrison. He came up to see stills, I pulled out the whole file and I think I let him take them all; you should phone him in Ottawa and ask him to send them over."

Q.: What's his name?

A.: "Gord Harrison, let me get his number - Ottawa 52l-55l0. First thing to ask him is did I give him the whole file? I think I must have, my policy is to be completely open and share whatever I can share. There is one good interior shot the other guy that still has lots of good ones is Terry O'Hara.

Q.: I wonder if Kerbel has some in his file?

A.: " Negative, I didn't get anywhere with Kerbel much, he didn't remember much and didn't have the files, they were in storage or something, he promised to review them and get back to me and never did, I found him quite un-helpful. I found Bruce Affleck helpful, I found David Martin, Tee Hee Hoffman's lawyer helpful and I found O'Hara helpful, but I didn't find Kerbel to be of much use."

Q.: Which of the Crown witnesses did you talk to?

A.: "I talked to Cathy Cotgrave on the phone, I talked to Gayle Thompson on the phone, I talked to Lawrence Leon in person, Gillespie.

Q.: You talked to Gillespie after-the-fact didn't you?

"No I talked him while I was researching the book and I talked to Rod Stewart,

and to one who gave me an affidavit, Roger Davey."

Q.: He gave you what?

A.: "He gave me a sworn affidavit, which is in the book, saying that he hadn't taken the phone call from Rick that night, he had perjured himself, and then his wife gave me an affidavit saying that she had in fact taken the phone call.

Q.: And what happened to those affidavits?

A.: "There at Elizabeth Thomas's, they would have gone to Avisson, the problem with that I think is that Davey wasn't up before the court as a Crown witness, but he was talked to by the police, in some ways in a trangectoral way his testimony was quite damaging because that was the whole thing about a party came from and the jury was left with the mistaken impression that Rick Sauve was at a party, the background sounded like a party testified Davey, and Davey was never on the phone with Sauve and that was always Sauve's story that it wasn't Roger but his wife that answered the phone and Roger finally admitted that that was true. You know another problem you have here is when the witness has perjured himself its the flip side of the lying thing."

Q.: Yea, what is the truth?

A.: "No, its more than that, its if they come clean they leave themselves open to the perjury charge, which has happened recently, I know, in the Milgard case you know the crown witness who was attempting to recant was threatened with a perjury charge, or the witness is left in the position of not recanting and compounding the perjury, and wrestling with their conscience for the rest of their lives, so its a real tough nut. When I took Roger and his wife to Bruce Affleck's office I had them set Davey especially to swear an affidavit basically confessing to perjury, Affleck refused to take the affidavit in that form without Davey first going to a lawyer etc, etc, so what we agreed to do was let the reader draw there own conclusion and get a matching kind of an affidavit from the wife saying I'm the one who talked to Rick."

Q.: Did they say why they lied?

A.: "Yes, Roger lied - the cops called him in just as it says in the book, saying they had the phone records from Hoffman's apartment and they said alright we've got you dead to rights, we know that Sauve called your house the night of the shooting, we know you know something about it and he said 'I don't know anything about it' and they said we know you know something we've got the phone records to prove it and if you don't come clean then were going to charge you with accessory after the fact and so he told them what they wanted to hear and repeated it in court to protect his wife he says, partly, with the fear of recrimination from the Satan's Choice against crown witnesses so he took in on himself, and also to avoid being charged. I said to him, Roger, they were bullying you, they can't charge you with something you haven't done, but he's the kind of guy who would knuckle and even though he owns a Harley and wears black leather and likes to talk the talk, well they heavied him and anyway I got that straightened out, but it wasn't considered to be fresh evidence or not important enough, but he did a nice little job for the crown, not only do we have planning deliberation, phone calls and everything else but after the fact we have a victory party when the deed was done, it put the icing on the cake for the crown and he was never contradicted in court, completely falsified, its a shame, but Kim Campbell had to know that, her people knew it I have no doubt.

Q.: Did you try to talk to any other witnesses, beside Cotgrave, Thompson, Lawrence Leon, Gillespie and Roger Davey?

A.: "Rick Galbraith, was he ever called as a witness? I tried Stewart messages left on his machine, never got anywhere, told you McReelis turned me down, who else would there be, you know who else I talked to is Linda Leon, Lawrence's wife. I don't know how closely your following the Milgard case but there is a very very similar twist on this, she was over at a local bowling alley overheard by Rick's wife saying that Lawrence Leon had gone out and shot up his own van, you know that whole wrinkle I didn't play it up too much in the book but the van was shot up supposedly, she declared that he had done it himself, in public, so I felt obliged to call her and I met with her and she said she had never said that, I came away concluding that they were in the throws of divorce and that maybe she was bitter towards the end and said that publicly to ... you know, I came away thinking that she was telling me the truth, but there again who the fuck knows. Who else would there be in the crown, I didn't talk to Leo Powell or Julie Joncas, I didn't try. Well I wanted to talk to everybody when I started out, I wanted to but ran out of time. Well one of the real mysteries for me is that gun, it just shows up sitting on the, what is the testimony, that it was still in the pocket of the clothing which was all folded on his body?"

Q.: Yes, right, you see by putting the gun there first of all it aids in the proof of mens rea, secondly it removes any defence of section 44, self-defence I think its section 44.

"Whose mens rea?"

Q.: It aids in the proof of mens rea of the accused, or on the accused, in other words in order to have any criminal event you have to prove criminal intent, you have to prove it was discussed in advance and considered in advance and then done, in other words pre-meditated -- and if you take away the gun then you take away the probability of a spontaneous situation wherein one person has drawn a weapon and another person has responded with his own weapon.

A.: "But they didn't completely take away the gun, which really baffles me."

Q.: They couldn't, because the gun came to that place in some known way and it would be traceable, Caplan gave Matiyek the gun.

A.: "Right, but they only got to Caplan by way of the gun, I think, well that's it they traced it by way of registration..."

Q.: You know removing evidence is something you don't do, re-arranging evidence is a different matter, you don't remove evidence because it has tremendous domino effect, you re-arrange evidence and its a different matter you say, well in the heat of the moment, there were ambulance drivers, there were first aid people, there were policemen, there were witnesses, there was the deceased himself who may have had last gasps and done contortions with his body, we don't know why it has been re-arranged there are many ways of covering that but if you tamper with evidence in going so far as to remove evidence you can go to jail for all times.

A.: "Well that's what happened with the tapes from Kitchener."

Q.: I don't know how they got away with that, except by the same thing, they just plead ignorance. If someone conspired to hide the tapes or whatever that would be a different story but they didn't they just didn't mention that they were there. But the other thing was the strange phenomena wherein police introduced the tapes to the lawyers prior to a day in court and these tapes were of a different kind but from the same place and they were not complete, they did not continue to the time of the raid attended by Hall and others at the Kitchener clubhouse approximately 7:30 to 8:30 somewhere in that time on the night of October l8th. wherein it was clear first of all that the police were there for a purpose, secondly the police had the capacity to install recording devices and thirdly that they did and fourthly that the police knew the whereabouts of Hoffman at the time and that they had continued knowledge of Hoffman's whereabouts right through until about l0:30 when he left the place and went somewhere else.

A.: "It wasn't quite l0:30, no about 8:30 on the clubhouse phone, but anyway Ok lets get back to the gun, I think that's really troublesome, lets assume that it never left the pocket, that it was always in the pocket in the upper left pocket of that jacket, that means that somebody removed his clothing and folded it and placed it on top of his body."

Q.: It wasn't folded, apparently it was in a pile unless you saw differently in photographs.

A.: "No, I saw photographs, OK."

Q.: Wakely's testimony said they were in a pile, so that could mean a number of things, folded or in a pile with a blue shirt; in actual fact he accompanied the body to Peterborough early in the morning and later in the morning the body was covered, later in the morning at Peterborough Hospital, in the presence of two other doctors and Corporal Moore from O.P.P. he picked up the garment and inspected it. Corporal Moore was identification specialist from O.P.P. and he came down roughly ll:30, he came late, an hour or more after Wakely had arrived. He was at the hotel and he was there all night, it was him that took the colour photographs you refer to, Wakely took black and white, so you have O.P.P. photographs not the Port Hope.

A.: "Well, it fair boggles the mind, how it could have happened just that way."

Q.: Whoever removed the clothing, whether it was an undertaker or a medical examiner of some sort, they must have noticed the weapon, they must have noticed the weapon...

A.: "Yes, they would have had to, the weight alone ..."

Q.: That jacket still exists somewhere I presume.

A.: "Oh, I tried to trace the physical evidence, it started with the crown's office and they referred me to the Port Hope P.D. the Port Hope P.D. .. I got nowhere.

Q.: Gordie Van Harlem told me he was trying to trace his colours and his other personal property seized when he was put in jail and he has been unable to obtain them and no one would cooperate with him. He actually approached McReelis is person. Did you ever see Sam McReelis.

A.: "No I never did."

Q.: You did see Terry Hall and Colin Cousens.

A.: "Yes, personally, well I think your on to something with the gun there's got to be some explanation and it should be helpful to have some of Terry Hall's pictures.

Q.: Do you remember a name, Kelly, Const. Kelly?

A.: "No."

Q.: Do you remember a name, Const. Douglas Shortreed?

A.: "No I can't say I do, these are Port Hope?"

Q.: Port Hope police.

A.: "No, I think I'd remember a name like Shortreed."

Q.: His nick-name is Shorty. So this is Harrison's number at work I presume?

A.: "That's his home in Ottawa, you'll get him there I don't know that he has a work number. He is a freelance that came onto the story a year or two ago and he's just had a call from gum school, he's a young guy who just took a shine to this whole thing and he's decided he wants to make a documentary and he shot a lot of video."

Q.: So have we actually.

A.: "Have you; well he may want to call me for authorization or whatever but I'm here. I wouldn't mind in fact if you sent me the whole file and you could send me back the whole file a lot of it's draft and would be of no interest to you.

Q.: A lot of its what? Sorry

"Draft, personal stuff you know and after the fact, but there's really only two or three of the 8-l/2 x ll colour photos that would probably be of use to you."

Q.: I see, I think tomorrow I'll go see Terry O'Hara.

A.: "Hall? - O'Hara, good, good."

Q.: Well I got with Bastos for several hours, Bastos, one of his partners, Joe was the P.I. who ....

A.: "Joe Bastos, right you guys would have something in common."

Q.: Actually no. He never struck me as being a P.I. and he doesn't show up in the records, I think he just worked as a clerk for O'Hara.

A.: "That's possible, an investigator, did he tell you the story about the trip down to Port Hope to interview the witness and being met at the door and - slam, he got caught in the middle of a shotgun..."

Q.: We ran into some obstinacy on the part of some of the witnesses and their friends, some pretty strange stuff. Crown witnesses. You can't get near them with an up front approach, in other words; Hi I'm June Rogers a freelance journalist working for so-and-so I'm doing a story on this I wonder if i could talk to you about it ..... -- the guys dead, leave it alone Soyanaro - click.

A.: "Well I didn't get that, but of course it was before the book was published."

Q.: Were talking to people you didn't approach. Did you ever try to talk to Helen Mitchell, Sue Foote?

A.: "No, and Jamie Hanna, that's someone I wanted to talk to, I couldn't fin her."

Q.: Yes Jamie Hanna, she's got a different name.

A.: "No I didn't try either of them and I might have got the same response, it certainly took me some fast talking with Gayle Thompson, real fast talking.

Q.: What did Gayle Thompson say?

A.: "Well she said a lot."

Q.: How did you find herS?

A.: "Someone out in Port Hope must have told me she was out in B.C. and I got the name of the town, it was just as far away from Port Hope as you can get in the Dominion of Canada."

Q.: It was on Vancouver Island?

A.: "Yea, Juno or something, let me get my notes, I got a lot of that kind of response from her at first but I just kept my foot in the door, she finally did come around. It'll take me a while to find this one. The most pertinent stuff that she told me was in the book that's where I got all the detail."

Q.: How was she? Was she a willing interviewee?

A.: "Yea finally she was, she was more willing than Kathy Cotgrave. Cotgrave agreed to talk to me and we talked on the phone and I didn't go into too much detail because I thought I would be meeting with her in person, then the closer I got to a her meeting the colder her feet seemed to get and then she put me off finally. Gayle Thompson I talked about flying up to see her and then we finally agreed to talk on the phone and she sounded fine she really sounded together, she really hated Leo Powell, because she hadn't wanted to serve them at all you know that bit is in the book but it never came out in trial. Once the waitresses recognized the Satan's Choice for who they were, they didn't want to have anything to do with them, they knew there was going to be trouble and he wanted them to serve, the way Gayle thought of it - it was a slow night and he was hungry for business and so..."

Q.: What kind of things did Kathy Cotgrave tell you?

A.: "This is something I heard from both sides, from all the local bikers and rounders, the biggest trouble in the whole picture was Tommy "Retard" Horner, a Satan's Choice member, this guy was certifiably nuts and he and Matiyek had numerous altercations in the bar and everywhere and everybody had trouble with this guy. So what Leon was saying was that it was Retard and not Sauve or Blaker or any of the others that were actually charged who caused the most trouble with the Golden Hawks before. He didn't know about the shooting of his van until after he testified, one thing about Leon you know, he only came forward according to the police story a day before he actually turned up in court, very very convenient there. I'd like to know how the shot gun got from either Bill's boot or his truck to Lawrence Leon."

Q.: Retard Horner hated Matiyek, has anyone ever implied that Horner was in the bar at the time?

A.: "No, I think for the simple reason that he was in jail, he had a pretty good alibi."

Q.: The coppers might have written him in anyway, look at Van Harlem. Van Harlem was having relations with McReelis's wife wasn't he?

A.: "Oh that was a story that Rick told me, god that's hard to believe eh? Yea, that's right there was real bad blood there, the theory being that the whole Van Harlem put up, which Helen Mitchell was a big part of, how many witnesses said they saw Van Harlem?

Q.: Just one, Helen Mitchell.

A.: "Well there you go see, for good measure they got in the white running shoes, the whole assumption was that was a pay back. Oh yea, here we go, David Gillespie's wife. Yep, Gayle Thompson - March 12/86 by phone - Qualicum Beach,B.C."

Q.: The name of the place is?

A.: "Qualicum Beach, Vancouver Island, phone number 752-2226."

Q.: Area code would be?

"604 is Vancouver anyway. OK here's what she had to say "Hasstle with Brideau - Jones - Matiyek, Brideau associated with Choice, Brian sat with Bill, Fred and Sonny those three far ahead of Brideau I think in terms of drinking. Jones from Cobourg, Randy's ex-brother-in-law", who the hell is Randy?"

Q.: Koehler?

A.: "I guess that's it eh, Jones is Randy Keohler's ex-brother-in-law from Cobourg, I'd forgotten all about that. "doesn't know what started the argument, started beating on Brian, Fred and Bill, asked them to take it outside; next Brian said 'the next time I see you it'll be at the end of a shot gun' Jamie or Kathy heard that. Brian called Rick Sauve from the lobby of the hotel, he was mad, knew Choice wanted Matiyek and he called them in. Matiyek was sitting in an almost empty hotel, perfect set-up."

Q.: She said Matiyek was sitting in an almost empty hotel, Oh boy.

A.: "Yea, what you getting here is her tape on the whole, eight years later, she said "it was worse to watch a show like that than to be part of it... of a friend a warm, kind, generous man, the warmest kindest man I ever met, he was big and strong he drank quite a bit and he knew how to party..never had a steady woman in his life, well off because he was working on the pipe line...

to a point he was a bully, could name instigators....he'd get so drunk he'd throw people out of the bar at closing, we had a joke - don't let him pass out he'd still be there in the morning he was so big they couldn't pick him up. He was good with kids, he was a warm, kind considerate man, he was taken advantage of and loved and liked. Merv rescued her from another member of the Choice, Retard, before this - he pinned her up against the bar threatening the bar tender if he didn't turn off the juke box he would carry her out of bar." I have 30 Choice there? She honestly believed there were as many as 30 Satan's Choice came in that night. I said gee do you really think there were that many and she said,' well I know there was 5 at one table and 5 at the bar and 5 in the back room and there was some in the lobby and other ones I didn't see', she knew McLeod, Jonesy in the pool room and then disappeared, Sonny Bronson at the cigarette machine when they started coming in, remembers an older man and that's the elusive older man that Gary Comeau .."

Q.: Cap Hunter.

A.: "You found him? You found the old man? You son-of-a-bitch you did it. Does Gary know?"

Q.: Yea I told him, but the old guy is dead.

A.: "That's amazing that you found him, poor Gary wanted that guy so bad."

Q.: He says he didn't see too much, at least Carol Hunter says he didn't see too much.

A.: "Well I think he was pissed, but the idea was it was so important to Gary to have this fellow as an eye-witness to his conversation with Jamie Hanna, he vowed with Jamie Hanna he told her his name, he was hustling her, he was ordering the beer..."

Q.: No one talked to Jamie Hanna eh, I can't remember was she a witness.

A.: "Yes she was a witness, and not only that, she's the reason they didn't make bail, one reason Van Harlem spent a year in jail because she claimed to be threatened about testifying. But anyway Gary thought if you could just trust this guy, maybe this guy would remember Gary's discussion with Jamie Hanna which was all very casual and it was a hustle."

Q.: Too bad it wasn't done three years ago, anyway, I found one neat old guy his name is Stan, he says you know I've been in that place every night and every night since and it was the one night I wasn't there, but he knew everybody. What else did Gayle say, she said Bronson was at the smoke machine..?

A.: "She remembers the old man with Jamie Hanna, Helen Mitchell was there, came to the bar to get a drink of water, she was famous for coming in without a cent and ordering water, definitely remembers her but doesn't know when she left, so she was in the bar that night but whether she was actually there at the time of the shooting she doesn't know."

Q.: She didn't work there?

A.: "Helen Mitchell, no, no one says she did, what she was saying is she had no money, lived behind the bar or up above or whatever and she would come in a lot just to order water because she had no money. There were other times when Lawrence Leon was afraid of Satan's Choice, I would assume that would be like Retard, lord knows who else. Didn't sign statement - she didn't want to sign her statement and McReelis said, 'think about what Bill would do if the situation were reversed, do you want these people running around the streets', you'll love this one - she thinks she knows who shot at Lawrence Leon - Ronny Proulx, whether I checked that spelling I don't know. Threatened by Ronny Proulx, threatened from his ex-wife indirect, I don't know what that means. His wife worked at Davidson Rubber and is a cousin of Randy's, I assume that's Ronny Proulx's wife worked at Davidson Rubber and is a cousin of Randy's.

I have a name Dawn Alan, just a name, grew up in Cobourg Satan's Choice motorcycle BMC, followed Gayle home, long been associated with the Choice, I don't know Dawn Alan, I don't know where that name comes from."

Q.: Don Allen? I wonder if he's related to the Doyle family, the Babcocks?

Interesting, or to the Hunter family because Julie Joncas had a brother who was associated with the Choice, had a broken arm or something at the time.

A.: "Well here I've got 'followed Gayle home, a «MDUL»woman associated with the Choice', I think what she was saying is she felt threatened, unless the name is Dawn that would be Bill Lavoie's wife, I don't know. But we said there couldn't be that many too, she was coming in and giving her statement and saying she thought there were 30 of them and they said no we don't think so. They had strippers at the Queen's, Wednesday nights were usually busy, she resented Leo for leaving, she claims she had 4 to ll because of strippers, after shift pipe-line factories, Eldorado, I guess after ll lots of guys would come in especially when there were strippers. Cathy Cotgrave was on the swing-shift, she was cashing in her float when the Choice came in, told Leo. Powell to get on the phone to call the cops, Leo said 'no no no, there's lots of dollars to be made here, don't cash your float Cathy', she hates Leo. Powell, she really does she has no respect for the guy at all. She didn't see the Horseshoe.

Everybody was moving simultaneously with the shots, there was mass movement towards the door. The table right across from Bill was where 5 or 6 were sitting including Merv."

Q.: The table across from Bill, to his right?

A.: "I took that to mean across, like in front of..."

Q.: But that was the old man wasn't it? OK across from Bill had 6 eh?

A.: "That's what she said but her numbers were away high, even the police agree on that, I think they were trying to get her to tone it down before she went into court. According to my diagram they were somewhat to Bill's right, not directly across, not according to the eyewitnesses. Gayle called his brother Gord, yea Gord Matiyek to tell him that the shooting had happened. Port Hope and Cobourg are old rivals. Kerbel crossed Thompson, cut her off, feels Kerbel cost them the cake. Liked O'Hara, not intimidating, warned about Kerbel,

Q.: oh so the crown warned her?

A.: 'take a deep breath if necessary before answering his questions'. Here's my notes to myself: Gayle Thompson sounds tough, bright and confident, still convinced that Matiyek's killing was like a show performed to amuse members of Satan's Choice, she suggests that Gary Comeau might have been shot by someone in the club to provide an alibi, apparently unaware of the fibre testimony of forensic expert Finn Neilson."

Q.: That's absolutely conclusive the micro-scopic comparison of the two bullets its beyond any conceivable argument.

A.: "Yes, I agree, and what's more Mike as I tried to say to her, according to the medical testimony, had the thing gone another centimeter one way or the other or deeper, he could have been dead himself, you really think they went out of the hotel and one of them shot Gary?"

Q.: It's preposterous, you couldn't predict the impact, you would have to study its intensely to determine the velocity of the bullet after penetrating whatever kind of simulated product...

A.: "Speaking of mens rea though, all I'm saying is here is a bright and competent woman, who eight years after-the-fact, you have to look at that town and the way the local newspaper covered the trial, they got a really one sided view of the trial, but that's all they had to go on because the trial was in London and my old buddy Mac Haig was covering it and selling it to the local paper, so they got a really jaundiced view and like any crown witness, all she knew was when she was in the court room, so eight years later she still believes all this, that Comeau for example was the gunman, and the only way she could extricate herself from this, because I was sort of wondering you know, gee your testimony really put this guy away and it does seem like he wasn't the gunman.

No, no she says, I believe they could have shot him to give him an alibi later.

Q.: Cousens stuck to that too didn't he? Colin Cousens.

A.: "Well with him it wasn't intentional, with him it was the notation that Comeau could have been the gunman.."

Q.: And the bullet ricocheted around the room, bullshit! The bullet had already been through Matiyek, They were asking an awful lot of a 9 mm. bullet here.

A.: "Well it did go through Matiyek and into Comeau but I don't think it rattled around too much. I'll tell you, you should go and see Cousens and I guarantee you he is going to tell you the story about when he was a Constable at Larder Lake and he went to empty his gun one day after a shift and got sloppy and it went off accidently and oh-my-god it just zipped all around the room."

Q.: Sure it would. On its initial velocity hitting anything at an angle its going to ricochet all around the room, but it has lost its initial velocity tremendously..

A.: "Lucky for Gary"

Q.: Shit, a 9 mm. after 30 ft. its velocity is on a down hill curve, if you graph it the downhill curve is dramatic because the mass of the bullet and the drag profile of the bullet relative to the charge that fires it is so great ...

A.: "Mike, your really into this aren't you, it really captured your imagination here."

Q.: Well we are deep into it.

A.: "You really are, well I'll tell you the guy who would most enjoy all of this is Gary, Gary would love going over all this with you, he would just love it, because he has been playing it and re-playing it for so many years and he is just so caught up in it all understandably, but he's more into the conspiracy theory than Rick is, mainly the coppers yea."

Called Gord Harrison who agreed to send pics. and stuff from Mick Lowe's file to our office.

Merv Blaker -- Notes for meeting:

(1) "Hello' from Mick Lowe

(2) Where is Carol Clapperton?

If we dig very, very deep will we uncover a whole diffeernt story? Incriminating?

NO!!

March 23, 2:24 Merv Blaker

On way to Merv's place 080 FEY -- seemed to be tailing, turned South on 45 and turned into Real Estate parking lot, female wearing darg glasses, 080 FEY.

2:45 arrived at Merv's place.

- Paroled for 5 years from Oct./88, non-reporting

- Day Parole in Oct./87 for one year in half-way house in Peterborough

- in Oct. 1978 Merv worked for United Tire in Cobourg. Just had all his teeth (uppers) pulled out. Off work from Monday.

Merv's greatest priority:

CLEAR HIS GOOD NAME.

See his buddies free.

Merv:

- I found myself in a separate position

- in my appeal it looked bad

- Larry Hurren said "let's give evidence"

- Larry Hurren is in Oshawa perhaps

- Larry said "Come on, we're innocent - let's give evidence."

- the other guys talked me out of giving evidence

- the other lawyers said it didn't look that bad

- I thought maybe there could have been a fight at the bar

- at home in the evening, arrived at bar at approx. 10:30 to 10:40

- 56 Bramalea St., Port Hope

- Rick phoned Merv at home around 9:00 to 9:30

- Rick said that there were some outlaws in town and something was happening

- Merv didn't say much except that he wasn't feeling too good, all teeth pulled out.

- Rick called again and said he couldn't get hold of Peterborough guys. He mentioned that some guys from Toronto were coming down.

- Rick was saying something about the Outlaws.

- Myself I can't stand them, the Outlaws.

- Merv agreed to pick up Rick at his home.

- Merv went to Rick's house and as he pulled into driveway Rick came out.

- then Merv drove to the bar

- Merv had 2 cars at the time

- Merv was driving the Rambler Station Wagon

- parked on John Street

- went in back door

- 10:30 to 10:40 approx.

- I was talking to Rick Galbraith

- Rick was talking aabout Rick's brother being in an accident on his bike. (Gary was Rick G.'s younger brother).

- Rick Sauve and Merv Blaker were sitting at the table and a guny named Gillespie came over and was talking bout bike parts.

- Bill Matiyek called out - "Hey Rick come here...for a sec."

- Matiyek was at the table in the corner near the door.

- I think Jamie Hanna was at the table.

( I knew J.H. to see her. She had slack marks on her arms - she was average looking - she was very loud)

- remember seeing her there - sitting

- I had seen some members of the Choice

- Armand had come in

- they were in the pinball room

- Rick was at Matiyek's table

- I rember hearing the shooting

- I saw Matiyek in his fall

- Merv was left sitting at the table and was shooting the breeze, Rick Galbraith.

- two police officers told Merv take the stand, Merv's lawyer was saying take the stand.

- Bobby Cousins phoned Merv and Rick and said come to Cobourg Plaza Hotel

- Cousin's said Terry Hall is here and he wants to talk to Merv and Rick

- went on bikes

- A guy named Roger was at the bar

- Hall introduced himself and his friend Roger

- Hall wanted to see Merv's colours whih were stashed in his helmet

- Cousins, Hall, Rick S., Merv and Roger were all getting drunk and Terry Hall was picking up the tab.

- Rick was boasting of his athletic prowess

- Hall boasted too

- they set up a fight, a few rounds the following Tuesday

- Cousins and Roger were into a serious argument

- Cousins came back in a mess after the two went out to fight

- Cousins and Hall went outside and went at it

- Merv and Rick went to leave

- they tried to get Cousins away

- Hall had Cousins in a headlock and was screaming "You know who killed Matiyek."

- Meinhardt said to jury, we don't know which one did it, but it doesn't matter which one - we know one of them did it

- Neil Clelen

- Larry Hurren is in bad shape, he took to pills and things, he took it hard. The guys told him to stay away from the pills.

- Many times Merv has thought, what if I ws working that night, it wouldn't have happened.

- the Parole Board wasn't too friendly

- 1985 a guy named Crosby at parole hearing, a former police chief from Belleville.

- my friend Carol Clapperton was there

- the Crosby fellow was saying there were all kinds of bikers in Cobourg

- he brought up the details from the trial

- Crosby said, you knew what you were doing when you walked into the bar.

- Merv didn't have much luck

- Merv's mother went to Cobourg Police to ask if there were a lot of bikers in area. They laughed.

- Crosby didn't want Merv in the Cobourg area

- Elisa May is Merv's daughter. She was 6 when Merv was arrested.

- She is in Sir Sanford Fleming - she is 19 now.

? - why didn't Powell and Joncas use the pay phones instesad of walking to cop shop.

- Rod Stewart's the guy at the book store

- Susan Foote at one point told Merv she was blind in one eye

- Sue Foote's nickname was "dead eye"

- When Lawrence Leon took the stand he said Merv, Rick and Brian Babcock came into the bar and got into an argument and were saying Matiyek wouldn't live to see the end of the year.

- Lawrence Leon on cross said Merv maybe never said it

- Lawrence Leon was put up to his testimony

- Tommy Horner was told he was lucky he was in Joyceville or he would have done a life sentance too.

- Babcock was always fighting with Matiyek

- Merv never got into a fight or argument with Matiyek

Merv's Posting bail for Neil Clelland

-------------------------------------

The Choice generally knew of a certain enmity between Merv and Outlaws. Back in 1976-77 Merv was approached by one of the Richmond Hill Chapter members, a Neil Clelan who used to play cards and party with the Peterborough crowd in Port Hope. Clelan was up on charges on a drug beef. Clelan needed bail money. When the time came Neil Clelan's friends approached Merv and asked him to put up bail. Merv agreed after awhile to put up the bail. Things went OK for a while then the Choice in several areas became Outlaws. Merv was worried, he thought of seeking out Neil Clelan but eventually didn't. Merv had borrowed the money against his house. He was making payment which were hurting. He got behind on his taxes. He talked it over with his wife and finally decided to withdraw bail. Having done this, he was again approached by Clelan's friends, this time Outlaws. They urged him to re-apply the bail. He did after getting Neil Clelan to pay the tax bill. Clelan welched on this deal. One day Fred Jones, who was a friend of Merv's wife, accompanied by Sonny Bronson, came to Merv's house with Merv's wife who had unwittingly brought the two Outlaws home thinking them to be friends. At the time there was deep enmity between Outlaws and Choice. Merv hated Outlaws because they are racist. Merv was so upset - and already pretty drunk - that he punched his dear wife in the side of the head - something he deeply regrets. The two Outlaws left Merv's house at that time. On the night of October 18, when Rick Sauve called, Merv was told about the Outlaws being at the bar. Even though Merv had just had all his top teeth taken out by the dentist and was feeling rough, he agreed with Rick Sauve to go to the bar (Queen's) and deal with the Outlaws, in the hope Neil Clelan might be there and that he might get some satisfaction or the debt owed to him. He couldn't have cared less about Matiyek. This is a story Merv is holding back on. Rick Sauve knew all about this, others knew. Merve agreed that I should share it with Terry O'Hara.

- Merv will come to our office to do a video tape

- left Merv's place at 7:35 after looking at his 1972 Sporty l800 and his Triumph project - bolt on hard tail.

March 24

Set up meeting with Terry O'Hara for Friday.

March 24

Contacted Justice Coulter Osborne at 3:30, talked to secretary and she will ask his lordship if an order on condense was ever made. His secretary read the book.

Theory:

B.M. had the weapon in his lower left pocket, fully in the grasp and control of his left hand. It ws pointed at Sauve. He saw Campbell approaching and began to withdraw his weapon by first raising his left elbow so that he could withdraw his weapon from the pocket.

Forensic pathology suggests a tunomed(?) wound on the upper arm raised to the horizontal position. This wound is connected with a second wound which began with entry at the bottom of the lower mandible. This was the first shot fired.

The second shot was fired to a point in front of and centred ahead of Matiyek's left ear, travelling in a straight line to the skull on the opposite side. This was a lethal shot. The third shot went through the back of the skull as Matiyek went forward and over on his side.

- BM had the weapon in his left hand. I know because I had the seat to his right. Had it been in his right hand, I could have grabbed his hand and shoved the hand and the weapon down.

- When Mr. "W" walked up, BM stiffened and made a jerking motion to indicate to Mr. W. he had a gun. He scared the shit out of me I'll tell you.

- Bill had eyed me over and he didn't resist me sitting down. He showed me a little bit of gun in a bottom. Can't remember the gun.

- When he saw Mr. W. come along Bill figured that was enough

- I saw the top of his hand, I didn't see much of the gun but I knew it was a gun

- The right hand was free

- I thought he had a light beard or a two-week growth

Q.: Was he wearing a watch?

A.: Can't remember.

- There was a vivid discussion in the pinball room

- When I got to the table, I saw the gun then bombs could have gone off and I would have missed that

- Somebody might have said things are cool to the Outlaws. I could have. If I did it was to F.J. I was down by the bar

- When we walked into that hotel, if there was a brawl going on we would have «MDBU»helped the Outlaws and Matiyek.

- I was probably staring at the bar. Here's this greenhorn Sauve squirmming, cowering back

- I heard three shots, jump up and feel the pain all at the same time. And I started running in panic for 6 to 10 strides then it struck me like a sledghammer in the brain. I then calmed myself, strided to the back door

Q.: Campbell said he was at the car at the same time

Q.: Campbell said Comeau drove with him - A.: NO!!

- Me and Jeff were in the same car, Merv and Rick ended up in the car

- Gary; "I don't know why he said right hand."

- Lorne was wrong about that and some other descriptions

- Mr. X, Lorne went his own separate way

- Mr. X had the problem

March 24, 7:20 p.m.

Spoke with Jeff McLeod on phone, Jeff could call me Friday and arrange for an appointment Friday evening. We will meet together and we will also meet with Mr. W. Mr. W. has been talked to by Jeff. Jeff left him to think about the whole thing. It is dredging up a lot says Jeff. Jeff said he was waiting for Y/N(?) answer. I suggested that if answer is no, get Mr. W. to agree to ...

Met with Doug Shortreed at Heroe's in Port Hope. He owns 97 Mill St., he rents to Kathy Eastman. He says the young people around here know what went on. He was very nervous at first. He had nothing to do with investigation.

- denied or couldn't remember saying anything to Wilson about Dave Hills.

- he admitted there's bad apples in every bunch

- he has agreed to set up meeting with Bill Wakely

- he said there were rumours about the Jacket

- he obviously knew something about the Jacket

- he was dismayed that we were not totally up front with him

- he says the local folks want to bury it

- he doesn't like McReelis

- he thinks Moorehouse becoming a Police Commissioner sucks

- Moorehouse was Barb McReelis's boss in the Education system

- didn't like Powell a bit

- doesn't like Stewart "was he standing upright."

- doesn't like Doug Peart

- Doug was saying most of the people we were interested in he didn't like

- he says Wilson and MacDonald are good, honest men

- Wakely he thought was incompetent, until one day Wakely finally lifted a print, he changed his view -- (Peart case)

- said Wakely was fastidious and knew his procedure and followed it, he eventually decided he liked Bill Wakely.

- he liked Kenny Wilson and MacDonald

- he said don't be surprised if Wakely says Yes.

March 25 - Port Hope - 5:30 p.m.

120 Bruton -- no sign of life.

Gayle Doyle, 106 Agusta, Apt. 3 - she had no phone, she is not working.

106 August - WPS 386 * Gail's car? - RC4 381 - 030 NFL - male, moustache, dark hair, white 5'10", slim, with lime green jacket and scar on left side of chin.

5:20 dropped by to see Gail Doyle at 106 Agusta in Port Hope. She lives in Apt. 3 - the door at the north side. She couldn't talk she has a date. She will see us on Monday, March 30 at 12:00 noon. She said she was getting into tub - she didn't know how late she would be.

March 25, 1991 - contact with Gail doyle, 5:20 p.m.

Went to see Gail Doyle at 106 Augusta Rd. in Port Hope. She lives in apartment number 3

6:00 p.m. stopped and photographed 56 Bramalea, Merv's home at the material time.

8:00 p.m. - 9:00 p.m. Beer at the Walton.

885-2426 is # on big trailer labelled Rod Stewart Const. - parked in R.S.Const. parking area back of Municipal Parking Lot. - Stan's(?) plate RNL 401.

9:13 observed Shortreed's car at 95 Mill St.

Helen Beamer - Ajax, 43 Thorncroft Cres. L1S 251, Helen Beamer.

- at 6:30 p.m. Helen's male live-in friend has three buddies there, she was not home.

- 10:19 - 43 Thorncroft - Camero WTM 145

Home is a semi-detached, dark panelling between living room and basement window.

Must find Bill Glaister.

Doug Shortreed, Larry called him March 26, 7:40

Bill Wakely 885-5193, call around noon.

Wakely says he will talk to us. Shortreed told Wakely everything we told Shortreed. Wakely said, if they want to talk to me tell them to talk to me.

March 26 - 8:50 p.m. - called Betty King, she says:

- Gary phone her Tuesday

- she saw Gary last Sunday

- just got a letter from a woman from NFB

- a prison rights newsletter had reached

- there are 325 names on the committee list

- a woman from Thunder Bay called and said she had talked to Mick Lowe

I asked her to get Carol to call.

March 27, 11:50

Called Bill Wakely's home from car, wife says a better time to call would be between 7 and 8 p.m. She says Bill has been working nights and he hasn't had much sleep. She has been ill and she hasn't had much sleep.

March 27 - Terry O'Hara

Blaker and Hurren were nailed because they were Choice. If they had gotten on the stand..

- Sauve's convition was rational on the evidence

- worst ID procedure ever done by the entire world

- the reason Sam Mcreelis ...

- there were no calls made to the Kitchener Clubhouse

- no calls made to Hoffman's house

- obviously Kitchener was not involved in any conspiracy

- Sauve's conviction was on the evidence

- Comeau's conviction is completely irreversal(?)

Tom Yardley, Port Hope police officer, friend of Terry O'Hara.

Terry O'Hara interviewed Jones and Bronson, they may have left when shots were fired.

Leave Cousins til the end.

March 27 - visited Rick Sauve at Frontenac

? - How do you explain Lorne's statement?

- B.M. may have reached across with his right hand to hold the jacket while the gun was withdrawn.

? - Why did Powell allow Matiyek...

- Sauve and Blaker were NOT banned from the bar. Capable of proof.

- Rick Sauve may have known Wakely

- "Me and Merv were sitting at a table, Gillespie came by"

- Bill got off phone

(Hall offered Sauve big money to rat) (Relocation of Sauve)

- Bobbie Cousins was escorted out of Port Hope Town Hall.

- He had threatened Helen Mitchell, he got away with it.

- Bobbie Cousins was incriminated

- there were some sets of Golden Hawk colours

- "Bobbie Cousins, we know was an informant."

- Ask Mitchell about Bobbie Cousins

* Sauve is positive B.M.'s gun was in his right hand

* Sauve was scared.

- phone...

- when did Matiyek get the gun?

- was it when he went to the bar?

Left Frontenac 4:00 p.m.

757-6677 - Jeff

373-2627 - Howard

605-7166 - Jeff car phone

Jeff is at Country Nugget - 754-8240, ask for Jeff at bar

Sammy B's, Eglinton McCowan 265-4086

One of the things Terry O'Hara suggests is once we have the Matiyek gun go to Cousins and see if he'll go to Crown.

Message for Rick from Larry - where is my tape? Larry is still waiting for his tape.

Shane - 235-9216

Copper at Country Nugget, guy was real suspicious.

Met with Jeff McLeod. Also met Larry (379-7417) and "Paul". The three operate a home renovation business. Larry is former SCMC and is from Virginia, Ont., near Sutton. Jeff is worried about "Nutty", he calls Jeff every day or every two days. Jeff says he is the man in charge. He suggest that we show him report first. Jeff agrees that a big-name lawyer is needed. Ended meeting at mid-night.

Called Bill Wakely on March 28 at 2:20 p.m., his wife says he is out walking and will also be doing some shopping. Called again March 28 at 6:00 p.m.- wife's name is Bonnie. Bill Wakely wants to meet Monday, March 30, 1992.

- she has some concerns, she is playing cloak and dagger games

(1) There's nothing to guarantee to me that you are not working for the cops and that this is an effort to discredit the entire committee.

(2) I don't know who is paying you?

May have answered this question for her but told her that number one concern is something I cannot respond to -- she'll have to satisfy herself.

1) Bribed and coerced witnesses. Tampered evidence. Perjury.

ie: Helen Mitchell, Katherine Cotgrave, Bill Goodwin, Roger Davie, Jamie Hanna, etcetera

Action:

Find and interview Jamie Hanna

Run William Goodwin to determine if theft under $200 and impaired charges were dropped.

Interview:

Davie, Roger

Doyle, Gail

Hills, Dave

LaBrash, Peter

Lessard, Jackie

MacDonald, David

Mitchell, Helen (@Beamer)

Murdoch, Peter

Peart, Douglas

Shortreed, Douglas

Stewart, Rod

Wakely, Bill

Wilson, Kenneth

2) Withheld evidence.

i) The Dave Hills' meeting of witnesses following Matiyek's death on October 18 resulted in a statement given to police that police never brought forward. What was it?

ii) Toronto club house wire taps. (Metropolitan Toronto Police Intelligence Branch.)

3) New witnesses.

Three members of the SCMC who were not identified. Plus Doyle, Lessard Racicot, etcetera.

4) Crime scene tampering of physical evidence.

Matiyek's gun, ballistic trajectory,

5) New physical evidence.

Wire taps of Toronto club house.

«FC»THE CHAIN OF POSESSION OF MATIYEK'S GUN.«FL»

Matiyek's body left Queen's hotel at 11:14.

It went to Port Hope Hospital via ambulance and then to the Port Hope Morgue. From there it went to Civic Hospital in Peterborough. Later in the morning at or about 10:00am of October 19, Bill Wakely examined upper body cloths of Bill Matiyek who was naked from the waist. His blue shirt and red plaid bush jacket were piled on his stretched-out body which lay upon a wheeled guernsey. Wakely discovered the small, .32 cal semi-automatic Deutchewerke "Ortgies Special" in Matiyek's upper, left, breast pocket.

Three witnesses (Sauve, Comeau and Mr. W.) say the gun was in Matiyek's left hand prior to the shooting. Mr. W. Walked over and examined the situation, was told to get lost by Matiyek and then presumably reported all this to Lorne Campbell who in the view of Jeff McLeod, overreacted by going ahead and shooting three shots at Matiyek's head.

The first shot grooved Matiyek's upper arm and penetrated flesh at the lower mandible, deflected down, traveled through soft tissue to the adam's apple and then deflected off small bones to exit horizontally through the lower neck. Upon exit it entered Gary Comeau at his upper, rear, arm from the top. The trajectory indicates that Matiyek's upper left arm was raised to horizontal. No witness saw the gun come from his pocket but according to the three witnesses who saw a gun being held on Rick Sauve, the gun had to have been in his left hand.

The second bullet was lethal, entering the cranium in front of and at the centre of Matiyek's left ear. It drove through the brain causing a cessation of motor and sensory functions, striking the inside of the right cranium wall and deflected, without fracturing the cranium, bouncing back about one inch.

The third missile smashed through the back of Matiyek's skull as he fell forward and to his right side, crashing through bone and fragmenting as it went.

Matiyek fell to the floor, presumably with the gun still in his hand, or falling from his hand onto the floor.

10:50pm -- Matiyek talks on phone to Patrick Ghaney

10:55 -- Matiyek with gun in left hand in pocket, threatens Rick Sauve.

11:00pm -- Matiyek is shot three times by Lorne Campbell.

11:08 P.C.s Kenneth Wilson and David MacDonald arrive finding 12 to 15 people of whom Jamie Hanna, Gayle Thompson, Sue Foote, Peter Murdoch, Peter LaBrash, Kathy Cotgrave were noted. Seven people surrounded the deceased while Rod Stewart allegedly gave First Aid to Matiyek.

11:10 Sgt. Sam McReelis arrived

11:14 Matiyek's body was removed by ambulance, taken to Port Hope Hospital.

11:40 Bill Wakely arrives and gives orders to Wilson to preserve crime scene.

11:45

01:00 (at or about) Douglas Shortreed and David Kelly arrive at north entrance.

1:05 Kenneth Wilson leaves Queen's hotel

01:15 Oct. 19 James Moore arrives.

Shortreed lied to us on March 25 at Heroes in Port Hope.

He said he was not at the scene. He was.

He also lied about not saying anything to "Kenny" Wilson about Dave Hills or knowing anything about the name Dave Hills being mentioned to Wilson. Wilson's testimony makes this very clear. Shortreed did in fact make such a statement, or at least his partner David Kelly did in Shortreed's presence.

During the cross examination of P.C. Wilson -- who with his partner MacDonald were first on the scene at 11:08pm -- one of the defence counsel took Wilson's notebook from him and observed a notation "David Hills". Subsequent questioning drew only evasive responses.

Shortreed and Kelly were probably at David Hills' home where a gathering of witnesses began to amass immediately after the shooting. Shortreed and Kelly later reported a statement made by Hills and about some of the goings on at Hills' home.

The gathering continued into the wee hours. Jamie Hanna admits to being at the gathering for an hour. She said people came and went. It was dragged out of her at the trial during cross-examination. Something happened at Hills' place that Port Hope Police -- including Wilson and Shortreed -- want hushed.

In fact, after the shooting, most of the witnesses were at the home of Dave Hills. That included at least, Jamie Hanna, Sue Foote, Kathy Cotgrave and Hills himself. Hills was a bartender at the Queen's Hotel lounge.

Trial Transcript p.p. 1454 to p.p. 1455

J. Hanna - cr-ex. (Grossman)

Jamie Hanna clearly sets out under cr-ex by Grossman that "We were together the night of the murder"., "about an hour", at Dave Hills home. Hanna was very evasive but Grossman didn't pursue it long.

Someone on the police force was aware of that.

P.C. Kenneth Wilson, for Crown, cr-ex Kerbel

Kerbel had been questioning Wilson about seven people he observed at the time of his arrival (11:08) at the Queen's. These people were around Matiyek's body. Jamie Hanna, Gayle Thompson, Sue Foote, Peter Murdoch, Rod Stewart, Peter LaBrash, Kathy Cotgrave. There were 12-15 there when Wilson arrived but by the time he got around to taking names, only seven remained. He named the seven, "and the deceased"...

p.p. 140

Q. And the deceased. Constable you have been making reference to your notes. May I see them please?

A. Certainly.

Q. Thank you, sir. Perhaps you could indicate where they begin and where they end?

A. Page 72 and they end at 76.

Q. Thank you, sir. I am sorry, I can't make out this.

A. David Hills.

Q. David Hills. Thank you sir.....(goes on to question about seven people around deceased).

Not Hills nor Douglas Shortreed nor David Kelly were ever called.

... p.p. 143 (Wilson for Crown cr-ex Kerbel)

Q. May I see your notes again please, sir?

A. Yes.

Q. What about Mr. Hills, did he provide you with an identification, description, or name of a man he believed shot Mr. Matiyek?

A. Not me, no.

Q. Not you. But you have-- were you present when Mr. Hills made some statement?

A. No.

Q. Well it appears there is some notation in your notebook, is there not, with respect to Mr. Hills?

A. Yes, there is. It is information which was hearsay evidence which I wrote there which was passed on to me by the twelve till eight shift.

Q. Who in the twelve to eight shift gave you that information?

A. One of the two constables mentioned here. I don't know which one.

Q. What are their names please?

A. Constable Kelly and Shortreed.

Q. Kelly and Shortreed?

A. Right.

Q. And are they members of the Port Hope Police Department?

.... line of questioning and evidence was ruled inadmissible

Wilson, for Crown, cr-ex Grossman

... p.p. 152

Q. All right. Then you made reference to Constable Kelly. What is the constable's first name?

A. David.

Q. And I think you also made reference to a Constable Shortreed was it?

A. Yes.

Q. And his first name?

A. Sorry. I have got a mental block.

I can't think of his first name. I refer to him as "Shorty".

Q. If it comes to you, perhaps you will assist us.

A. Very Good.

Q. And let us know who that is. You mentioned that MacDonald was with you in the course of your investigation, travelling with you in your cruiser and in fact with from time to time that evening in the course of the investigation. Was he also present when you had occasion to speak to the various people you have now referred to, at that time?

A. If I can answer your prior question first, his first name was Douglas.

Q. Thank you. Let's go on now to the next question. ... ("Shorty" and Kelly questioning gets dropped by the diversion) the question was put again later.

p.p. 155 bottom

(Grossman struggles on with little cooperation from Wilson, asking if there was any one present when Wilson received information from Shortreed and Kelly. Finally the answer comes. "No.")

p.p. 156

Wilson hints that Shortreed and Kelly were actually at the scene. "I was at the entrance, north entrance way to the drinking lounge" [when they gave me the information].

Q. So you were at the Queen's Hotel when you received the information from Constables Kelly and Shortreed?

A. Yes.

Q. Were they both together with you at the time or did they give the information separately?

A. I don't remember which one gave it to me.

Q. It was definitely one of the two however.

A. Right.

Q. All right. Now that being the case, sir, and I appreciate you might have some difficulty recalling that especially if you don't have it in your book, are you able to assist us by indicating whether both of them were present at the time you received the information from either of them?

A. No, I can't.

Q. You can't.

A. It may have been third hand information from another constable, from them.

Q. You have lost me.

A. They may have told another constable of this who in turn told me.

Q. Do you have that in your notebook?

A. I don't have that, no.

Q. Are you able to specifically recall there was another constable?

A. No. I am saying this is a possibility as well.

Q. There are a lot of possibilities, sir.

A. Correct.

(this waffling continues through p.p. 157)

...

Q. Would it have been at the scene itself?

A. It was while I was at the main entrance. ...

end of P.P. 157

Q. And that would be about two hours after you arrived?

A. Right.

That would be about 1:08 or thereabouts in the morning?

A. I have 1 a.m.

Wilson was saved by the bell. His Lordship called a lunch recess.

Wilson later indicated that he left the hotel at 1:05 am.

March 29 - 8:00 p.m. - 53 Easson, Stratford

Doug Peart - ZRL 267 - SBX 982

Peart has a criminal record for having broken into a drug store in Port Hope and stolen a quantity of drugs he intended to sell. Bill Wakely's evidence was instrumental in pinning Peart. Wakely lifted a fingerprint off some glass at the crime scene.

Interview at Peart's home March 29 -- 8:00PM

- There are certain individuals I couldn't have talk about it

- no yelling before he was shot

- Matiyek first

- arrived 10:45 with Gillespie

- I wasn't called

- I could only identify two people, Blaker and Sauve

- I heard the shots

- there was screaming, some guys went out back door

- I went to front

- went and phoned ambulance and police

- phoned from front door and went around back, outside

- Rod Stewart was attending body

- went to Sue Foote's place with Kathy after the shooting

- Don't remember who went to Sue Foote's place

- You might want to look into - "Did I go to the police station"

- Dave and I went to police station at about 2:05

- Rod Stewart was tending to the body

Rumour: A guy who got off was a real bad guy.

- I don't know anything about .. money..

- there were almost 20 of them

- Bill just never got along with them, the SCMC

- Bill would sell dope and that was competition

- I know they threatened Bill before!

- I wasn't a close friend of Bill's - a big guy who liked motorcycles.

- I was back in the shuffleboard room

- I was shooting shuffleboard

- I heard shots, guys came running past me

- Kathy did good

- Everybody

- Sauve and Blaker good guys and just wanted to hang out with..

- BM kept a shotgun in truck

- Police took so long to get there

Doug Peart was never asked to give evidence.

- I went to see pictures the next day

- Kathy was a key witness

- for a week or a couple of weeks after we were pretty scared

- Police offered to pick us up and take..

- Kathy might have taken police up on it.

- There was no police protection -- we moved away.

1976 I moved to Port Hope. I think they had bought the house before incident. I borrowed the money from a bank in Cobourg to keep the keyboard. I have been as truthful...

9:30 p.m. left and went to donut.

Inconsistencies:

(1) Peart was terrified

(2) He was at Sue Foote's after incident

(3) He stayed outside while police were there

(4) He said him and Kathy went to Sue Foote's then said maybe they split up

(5) Doesn't remember meeting at Ganaraska

(6) Doesn't remember any money being paid to Kathy

(7) He was with Gillispie

(8) He said that the Choice had a meeting before they went to bar

(9) He went with Dave Gillispie to police station at 2:00 a.m.

(10) He said 46 Caroline (Kathy's parents home) was bought before the incident

(11) Police offered to pick them up to get groceries, to go out to a store shopping, etc.

(12) The accepted the offer for Kathy

(13) He said Choice still walked around town afterwards showing their colours

(14) He didn't see Helen Mitchell at the bar

(15) He was at the shuffleboard and there were a few people around him

(16) He ID'd Blaker and Sauve on the 19th.

(17) He doesn't remember seeing Dave Hills that night

(18) He was vague about where he was

(19) There were 20 SCMC

(20) "They should have thrown anyone they identified into jail" Hates Choice

(21) Peart's hands were shaking the whole time. His mouth was dry. His face was white. He was shaking very badly.

(22) He saw Rod Stewart at Matiyek's body. He called ambulance and police.

(23) We told Peart about chain of possession of gun. He was deeply concerned about gun. We must have spent 20 minutes on the gun. He was really bothered about the gun.

March 29 Note To File

Peart:

- What's the story on Dave Hills?

Jamie Hanna swore testimony that she was with sue and Kathy at Dave Hills' home. Peart says he and Kathy went to Sue Foote's. He couldn't name who else was there (Gillispie must have been there).

Note To File

Contact Ambulance Attendants!!!

Note to file Mar. 29/92:

It is odd that witnesses remember something about the revolver that Campbell used to kill Matiyek and yet no one saw Matiyek's weapon. Campbell's weapon was in plain sight for seconds. Matiyek's weapon was presented four times:-

to Sauve

to Comeau

to Mr. W.

to Campbell

Note to file Mar. 29/92

THeory: the gun was not fingerprinted or if it was the results were not made known because someone else's print besides Matiyek's would have been on the gun. Certain Police knew whose prints were on the gun; those of the person who took it from Matiyek's hand and put it in his pocket.

Note to file Mar. 29/92

Where were the drugs Matiyek was purportedly consuming? "Bennies"

There is consistancy in the fear and nervousness among witnesses we have talked to. They are terrified but they tell the same rehearsed story.

Note to File:

Must talk to Helen Mitchell

- Mitchell was used to fish in Gord Van Harlem

- they needed Gordie to show the jury wat a good alibi looked like. They wanted Hoffman. His alibi was same members.

- Mitchell perjured herself for some reason

- Gord says she lied

March 30/92 - Note To File

9:10 - spoke to a woman named Pat in the Pathology Dept. of Civic Hopsital in Peterborough, phone number 1-705-876-5014 ext. 3176 in regard to Post Mortem done on Bill Matiyek Oct. 19, 1978 at 10 a.m. -- was told to call back at 1 or 2.

9:20 - spoke to a woman in Medical Records regarding Gary Comeau's operation to remove bullet from his back. Bullet wss removed by Dr. Wilkins approx. 1 p.m. Oct. 31, 1979. I was told the records could only be obtained by forwarding an Original letter signed by Gary dated and witnessed, sent to: Health Records Services, Victoria Hospital, 800 Commissioners Rd. East, London, Ont. N6A 4G5. Fee $100.00. The person in charge of Records won't be back until next week.

9:35 - spoke to Mr. Finn Nielson 314-3200 at Centre for Forensic Sciences, he remembered case regarding both Matiyek and Comeau. He said he'd be happy to send the information for us and there shouldn't be any problem. Would appreciate it if we had file numbers but didn't matter. He said I first had to get approval from the Director, Mr. Lucas, phone nuber 314-3225.

9:47 - called Mr. Lucas, he had just stepped out and I was told I could call back in 15 or 20 min.

9:52 - called Newmarket Ambulance to see if there was a central number to call for information on ambulance attendants from 13 years ago. She told me to call town in which occurence happened -- called Cobourg-Port Hope Ambulance Service 372-6841, spoke to gentleman there, he didn't think they kept records for that long, gave me another number to call, 723-8177 spoke to woman at that number she told me they only kept records for 2 years. She suggested I call Ministry of Health, Licencing and Inspection Div. 327-7900 in Toronto.

10:05 - spoke to Mr. J. Van Pelt in regards to getting names of ambulance attendants that took Mr. Matiyek's body away from the Queen's Hotel at approx. 11:14 p.m. Oct. 18, 1978. Either a letter from next of kin or a court order was needed in order to release the information. He suggested refering to Police records, hospital records, or Coroner records first.

10:20 - spoke to Mr. Lucas, Director of Forensic Science. Mr. Lucas said he would need a letter on your letterhead with names, Gary Comeau and Bill Matiyek and dates Nov. 1, 1979 and Oct. 19, 1978 of testing. Also whether the case has been disposed of and your interest. You may Fax the letter to 314-3225 (Fax #), Mr. Lucas phone # 314-3223. It will take a couple of days to retrieve the information.

1:05 p.m. - called Pat Murray back at Civic Hospital in Peterborough, she told me to call the Coroner first as he should have a copy to forward to you. The coroners name on Bill Matiyek was: Ray Tesluk, 50 Cavan St. Box 360, Port Hope,Ont. L1A 3W4 - phone 416-885-8221

1:20 - called Coroners Office Port Hope, Mr. Tesluk would not be back until after 4:10 -- called Chief Coroners Office Toronto to see if they had file, was told it would be in Archives, I would need to send letter with facts to their office, they in turn would forward to Archives. When report is sent back to Coroners Office they will call for it to be picked up. Chief Coroners Office, 26 Grenville St. Toronto M7A 2G9. Phone 965-6678. FAX 324-3766. Attn: Kay Caney

(in between Bay & Yonge 1 block north of College). They need info: Please send to writer a complete coroners report on Bill Matiyek Post Mortem done approx. 10 a.m. Civic Hospital, Peterborough, Chief Pathologist Dr. John W. Whiteside, Coroner Ray Tesluk, Oct. 19, 1978 -- information why needed -- please call xxx-xxxx use email contact when report ready as someone will pick it up.

Transcript Volume 3, pg. 519 -- handwritten notes

Photo line-up shown to 22 people. Question:- Was Mr. Hoffman's picture picked out by these people?

Cathy Fair NO

Beverly Bongard NO

Neil Kaplan NO

Jerry Meretsky NO

Julie Joncas NO

Leo Powell NO

Sharon Brown NO

James CastinetteNO

Steve Cormier NO

Peter Labrash NO

Peter Murdock NO

Gary Fox NO

Cheryl Nastuk NO

David Hill NO

Douglas Peart NO

Jack Sunmore NO

David Gillispie NO

Jamie Hanna - she made no comment on Mr. Hoffman except she wasn't 100% sure

Cathy Cotgrave NO

22 People interviewed - only reference to Rick Sauve was that he was present in beverage room. There were approx. 27 people who were pointed out, mentioned or commented upon as being present or possibly present in beverage room that night. Jamie Hanna made no comment about Hoffman except she was not 100% sure. Cathy Cotgrave only one "pretty sure" to pick Armand Sanguigni -- pinball room. None of the 22 people picked Van Haarlem as being at hotel.

Bill Matiyek - Jacket exhibit 25 - Shirt exhibit 26. Bullet from B.M. head exhibit #23. Dr. John H. Whiteside - Hospital Pathologist - Civic Hospital. Post Mortem examination was held on the 19th. of October 1978 at 10 a.m. at the Civic Hospital in Peterborough. Exhibit A - report of Ballistics Dept. from Centre of Forensic Sciences. Exhibit B - blood alcohal content from centre.

Mr. D.M. Lucas 314-3223 - FAX 314-3225

Gary called. He talked to Rolly Sauve. Rolly gave Gary the phone number of Roger Davey and Rolly is keen to help out.

- tables were knocked down

- the body was moved "I was surprized the body was moved."

- body motions to indicate location

- he has done about 5 murders

- no photographs taken

- McReelis and MacDonald were there

- there were people in there at the bar

- I said that they should ..

- the caretaker

- Sgt. McReelis was there and in charge

- Sam left sometime after I came ...

- Wilson and McReelis interviewed Peart and Gillispie

- Dave Hills is at the Walton right now (employed there)

- when there is a shooting an officer should accompany the body and the ambulance normaly

- 27-1/2 year career

- how did the weapon

- Red and black checkered jacket

- gun was inside of the left inside pocket

- "Moore and I were surprised to find the gun in the inside pocket"

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Note to file: (Wakely testified that Moore had said something to indicate there was a gun so Wakely told the Crown he wasn't surprised to find a gun.)

--------------------------------------------------------------------

- there wasn't any indication

- many rumours

- there are people in town

- they were there

- Murray Blaker was a victim of circumstances

- Mary Mathews was at the Hotel the next day

- Rod Stewart remarried and his current wife is Editor of local paper

- when gun was removed

- I am not that handy with guns

- it was a small silver one

- there was an officer who was supposed to stop people from coming in

- got shit from Colin Cousins for starting autopsy before CIB was on scene

- we were going to start autopsy before an Inspector was there

- we got a phone call saying autopsy should not have been started

Was gun dusted? "No - I guess ... It was brought to ident. office

- tampering at the crime scene

- tables and chairs were righted

- persons attending the body moved chairs to access

- we interviewed witnesses for doing composites

*** - Jamie Hanna was the only one to give a good composite. It was of Comeua.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Note to file: Comeau swears that he was trying to hustle Jamie Hanna who was sitting at a table with an old man. AT the trial, Hanna had lost her memory of this.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

- she gave this for a person who was not there

- we didn't have a lot o truble with them

- after the shouting things were really calm

- I see Babcock around

SAMGATE Newspaper articles.

- an investigation of the department - more of an inspection

- we asked for a copy Oct./90 to Jan./91

- report came to town in April

- we wrote 4 letters to council

- Police Service

- Moorecroft got on but not Leo Powell

- McReelis's autocratic and intimidation tactics were creating a morale problem.

- Council critized report

- report fingered autocratic behaviour of McReelis

- Queen's was raided

- Sam and Leo are good friends

Is it beyond Sam to tamper with crime scene? - "I wouldn't be surprised"

Bill Wakely is Pres. Police Association.

Moore told Sam when he arrived that he could get an inspector right away. A couple of guys may have been forwarded by McReelis. Sam has been a thorn in our sides all the time. Page 15-18 of Preliminary hearing - my copy was whited out. Cousins asked if there were roadblocks set up. McReelis said yes. Cousins checked it out and found that there were no roadblocks.

- Kenny Wilson may be OK

- Rod Stewart may have been taking cocaine

- Kenny is on holidays

- there were rumours that ...

- Sam's wife was made principal of a school

- 2-l/2 years to go

- Sam has done a lot of things underhanded

- MacDonald is disatisfied

- population

- Sam gets up at 5:30 a.m.

- he comes to work on his days off

- he and his wife dec.... Children's Family Services.

- Stewart does historical building restoration

- Sam was a good manipulator

- Chief O'Neil was grooming Sam for Chief's job

- Sam's file was moved

- SCMC case was in boxes

- Sam, the chief and the secretary have the combination.

- there are many boxes in the - Russ McCleod

- Peggy Foster column wrote that a girl was involved - Shotgun Sam

5:30 Bill left.

- $l0,000. was paid to Cotgrave

- they all got paid different amounts

- she was asked to say certain things and as they told her story, she was asked to change their story

- she was asked to phrase her story in a cetain way

- we were both drinking at the time

- Leo Powell doesn't like to talk about it (the Matiyek murder)

- a few people .... in with cops

- Dave Hills, great guy

- met Gayle Thompson

- knew Mitchell, thinks Mitchell went to Napanee

- Mitchell

- lots of people talk

- Kathy Cotgrave said Helen was there

- some say it, Kathy Cotgrave

- stopped into the bar for a drink

- Cotgrave worked at Gana - Kathy has been at both

- 1980 Kathy told Gail about these events

- Faith Doyle, Brian Babcock were present

- Brian Babcock was in the Cobourg bucket

- people are tight lipped on the Matiyek murder

7:00 p.m. left Doyle's home where interview took place in front of Brian Babcock and Faith Doyle.

DOYLE

Gail Doyle, 106 Augusta St., Port Hope, Apt. 3

Key witness for new defence. Mother-in-law to Brian Babcock (PQ-SCMC). Worked at the Queen's Hotel for 12 years. Recently laid-off from Dover Seafood House, 43 Peter St., Port Hope 1-416-885-7340.

Vehicles at 106 Augusta:- Plate # WPS 386, sticker expires Aug. 3/92, Chrysler 1981 model 'CRO', silver 2-door, vehicle I.D. # 2C3BJS2G2BR162903. Driver of Vehicle & DL: D 6917-25825-95803, Faith C. Doyle, 106 Augusta St., Apt. 2, Box 494, Port Hope, L1A 3Z4.

(2) Plate # 030 NFL, sticker expires Aug. 6/92, Chevrolet 1980 Camaro, Blue 2-door, vehicle I.D. # 1P87JAN528315. Driver of Vehicle & DL: M4378-43727-15806, Kristina D. Mills, 77 Hope St. N., Port Hope, L1A 2N8.

Statement: March 30/92 - 6:30 p.m.

GAIL DOYLE

d.o.b. Oct. 5/39

I was employed at the Queen's Hotel from 1979-80 for about 10 years. I chummed around with Cathy Cotgrave a couple of years after that. She told me that she received $10,000.00 - as a witness and bought her husband's keyboards with it. She mentioned that other witnesses at the Matiyek trial received varying amounts of money. She said that in consideration for the money the witnesses were required to phrase their evidence in a certain way. Regarding Helen Mitchell, Cathy said she wasn't at the hotel at all. This conversation took place around 1981.

I was in the Queen's Hotel on Oct. 18/78 at noon but didn't stay long.

The conversation between Cathy and I regarding the payments for phrasing their evidence took place at the Queen's Hotel while we were drinking.

Taken at 106 Augusta St., Apt. 3, Port Hope, L1A 1G7

March 30, - Southern Ont. Newspaper Guild - Peter Murdoch, 461-2461 - left message.

Don Avisson, Ottawa, Aboriginal Justice Committee, 613-957-8307

No answer. He will be in April 6th. - he has just been transferred back to Ottawa. I left number for Avisson to call when he gets in.

Finn Neilson - 314-3232 - Centre for Forensic Sciences.

Letter faxed to Finn Neilson via Mr. Lucas at Centre for Forensic Sciences at 11:45 a.m. on March 31. Letter is on file. Requested Forensic Report re: Regina vs McLeod, et al. - Matiyek and Comeau.

March 31 - Barbara A. McReelis, 45. D.L. M1742-07314-75215

15 Trafalgar St., Port Hope L1A 2Z6. Sam, April 7,47

2 vehicles - Truck - KV5 945 - 1990 Ford P/U, Blue, Model Raneer Commercial, expires Nov. 30/92. White Plymouth Van.

I attempted to contact Rolly Sauve. His wife Tammy Sauve answered the phone. I told her my name. She came back on the phone after a short absence and said he (Rolly) couldn't come to the phone, I asked if he would be able to come to the phone at a later time, she said yes, I asked if 7:00 p.m. would be OK, she said yes, but that she was his wife, is there anything she could help with. I said no.

April 1/92 - spoke to Larry Sauve at 6:15 for 1 hour and half. Transcript of 1 hour conversation on file:

LAWRENCE SAUVE

Bewdley, 797-2510

- was in jail at time of murder. Heard his buddy got shot. Kept him in jail

Brian Brideau - dead. Matiyek beat him up that night. He called Rick. Dan (?) from Port Hope - was in jail.

"Nig" James Castonette -

Mike Painter - was at the bar and when he saw fellows come in, knew Rick - had worked with him. Went out the front door.

Castonette was the person who ran over, Stewart just stood there. It was Castonette who went over and put pillow over(?) head. Castonette was on probation and not supposed to be there.

Bill Wakely - police officer - 1st. on scene. Was pulled off the case and McReelis put on. Wakely claims he never saw 10,000 beenies.

McReelis's wife's father was clothier and put up money to buy drugs.

Bar was losing money.

Matiyek was selling drugs.

Brideau had phoned Rick Sauve and concerned Bill was all fired up and selling drugs.

Jamie Hanna

Bill Goodwin - came to house and Matiyek's cousins, Riley, Gil Purdy, Jerome Coller (was pushed out) - came in and wanted to borrow truck and started teasing Rick "Matiyek could take any three of you guys" - trying to goad Rick on. He testified he came to borrow truck and testified there were plans afoot to kill Matiyek.

He told this to head waitress (now married to present owner) Then walked down to police station.

Painter says Matiyek's body was moved.

Inspector Cousins and McReelis came out to house to q. Larry about..

A.: Hello

Q.: Larry Sauve please

A.: Can I tell him who is calling?

Q.: Sure, it's Micheal J. O'Brien

A.: Just a moment please

Q.: He can't come to the telephone?

A.: Yes

Q.: Will he be able to at some time

A.: Yes

Q.: OK, what time is a good time to call

A.: 7:00

Q.: 7:00 p.m. OK, in other words he will be in at 7:00 p.m. Would you rather I left a number for him to call?

A.: OK

Q.: OK, he can reach me at 416-741-9279

A.: OK, this is his wife is there anything I can do?

Q.: Its OK I believe he is expecting my call, again my name is Micheal J. O'Brien.

A.: OK

Q.: Thank you very much, Goodbye.

Phoned again.

A-1.: Hi

Q.: Hi, is Mr. Larry Sauve there please

A-1.: Who is this?

Q.: It's Mr. O'Brien calling, may I speak to your Dad please

A-2.: Hi

Q.: Hi how are you, are you having a good day, that's good, is your daddy home?

A-2.: Yes

Q.: Do you think I could talk to him, is he pretty busy, Oh he's watching TV eh, well that sounds like fun are you watching TV too -- your playing house, that sounds like fun. Oh thank you very much.

A.: Hello

Q.: Hello Mr. Sauve, those are a couple of nice ladies you have there. My name is Micheal J. O'Brien and I'm a friend of Mr. Comeau's I don't know if he has mentioned my name to you?

A.: No

Q.: We're trying to conduct an investigation into the affairs that you are aware of and one of the questions we thought outstanding is relating to a gentleman by the name of Mr. Goodwin, who made some statements in court in 1979 and we are about to go and interview Mr. Goodwin and I wondered, Larry if I could just have a moment of your time to ask a couple of questions, if you can actually recall - it's presuming a lot it was a long time ago.

A.: Certainly, yea I talked to my neighbour Gil Bertie he was here at the time too and he's not very happy with Mr. Goodwin as you might imagine either. What happened is that his cousin had split up with his wife so he was in rough shape as far as drinking and that and he had come out to see him and I guess Gil, Gil Purdy my neighbour, had had him there for a couple of days and the ironic thing is this day that this Goodwin came in there was the two Riley boys, one of them is grown up and married now, and they are cousins of Matiyek's so if you can appreciate that my brother Rick, my neighbour, who knew of Matiyek through me, but not very well, just because we are neighbours, I think you can appreciate that it is highly unlikely we would be discussing doing anything with Mr. Matiyek when his two cousins were helping me brick the house right here, right in the house with us.

Q.: No of course

A.: What the content of the.. this Goodwin wanted to borrow, I had a brand new truck at the time a 4-wheel drive, and I hardly know this guy, only through the ski club - you know the pipe line ski club, and do socialize and that well you can forget he was a complete asshole - the guy was nuts, but if my brother and him had words there was nothing, like first of all we don't like you and hardly know you, only through mutual friends, that he's be the last guy I would lend my pick-up truck to, a brand new 4-wheel drive, eh.

Q.: Yea, it doesn't make sense

A.: I'm sure if I'd only met you once or twice, I don't think you'd have the nerve to come and ask me for it in the first place. He wanted to tow some old scow he had down at the lake - so if anything was said to him it was to the extent that which one of us was going to kick his ass out the door, but as to discussing anything about doing anything to Matiyek that's not true you know. As a matter of fact if my brother and I were going to do something like that we would discuss it in private and not in a home or anything it would be out you know, there was nothing like that. If there is anything you want to ask me go ahead.

Q.: Well, we're trying to figure out why Mr. Goodwin said the things he did and we were wondering in fact he was pressured to say those things by virtue of the fact that he had criminal charges pending against him?

A.: The story I got was that he came here and that would have had to have been four or five months later I would say, my wife had left, we'd split up and I was still working on the house here and so it would have to be, because - the day I was to get out of jail they brought my wife in behind the court room in old Victoria Hall they bring the prisoners in from behind and they, the O.P.P.s brought in my wife and I didn't know what was going on, and she said, they shot your buddy last night or your friend last night and then they hustled her right back out again and I didn't know who it was, whether a man was dead, whether it was man, woman or child, or what, just that a buddy, and then they told me - I thought what the hell is going on - and they told me that your in a position to find out things, you know find out information for us, in other words rat on my brother, I didn't know anything about it, what was going on at all. They threw me back in the slammer, illegally.

Q.: What were you in for?

A.: That was assault against my wife, we got back together and then eventually we got divorced.

Q.: You were in the bucket for assault against your wife and did you get a sentence or was it just pending bail?

A.: Four or five, four months or something like this, but I had already done about four months. I think it was in October, late October or mid-October whenever Matiyek, I'll tell you when it came up it was the day he the night he got shot then the next morning I was brought into court, but in fact I never got there they just shipped me back to the jail and in the jail there was quite a few of the guys there from the motorcycle club, some of them I knew, I knew Dwight Boyle the guy they call "Diesel" and I think they had the big fellow, Lavoie, and they were all in there and this police officer said to me well they've got the perfect alibi, so already they had it figured that these guys had done, been all involved in it and they wanted just everybody.

Q.: So they more or less wanted you to snitch?

A.: Oh yea, so naturally I was wondering what was going on so they told me Matiyek had been killed, now they didn't say what was going on or anything so I didn't was wondering about my brother because I didn't know that this shit was going to happen or anything... but this guy "Diesel" said be quiet Larry I'll talk to you out, and I knew that my brother Rolly and him had grown up together, not Rick, so when we got out in the yard he said, be quiet he said don't dance for a couple of weeks and then you'll find out, so they'd already found out that Matiyek had been got killed.....you know that.. dead?....

Q.: Yea, he's dead now.

A.: Well he was on a day-pass to go to work, so when he'd come in that night he'd told them what had gone on eh.

Q.: Oh I see, so Brideau was in the pub on a day-pass?

A.: Yea, well when he got in it went around the jail like lightening and of course I didn't hear anything about it until the next day, so then they wouldn't let me out they wanted me to spy on these guys and it turned out one of these fellas said your brother was there, I'm trying to get his name, they call him Nig..

Q.: Nig Castinette

A.: Yea Castinette and he told me, now at that time he was telling me this, the shit that went on in the bar, that guy over there staring at you in the jail you know, he said he was there that night and he said what he had done, you know he had gone over and he wasn't supposed to be in the bar himself, but he wet over and helped Matiyek, he put the coat underneath him and everything that the other guy was supposed to have done ..

Q.: The actor,

A.: No

Q.: Rod Stewart, he called him an actor

A.: Rod Stewart, well he is, that's what he was, that's what he even called it his drama or something, but this Castinette he's the one that went over and tried to help Matiyek, not Stewart, but as we know in the trial I gather he claims he's the one that claims he went over and helped him.

Q.: So Nig was the guy?

A.: Yep, he was there, and he was on a pass.

Q.: So how well do you know Nig?

A.: Just from there and I don't know if he's still around or out west.

Q.: Was Nig Bill's friend?

A.: Well maybe through drugs or something but I don't thing he'd be a friend of his like I could ask some friends of mine and see if he was but I don't know if they were bosom buddies but if there was drugs involved they would certainly be dealing back and forth. Like Bill could be, you just kept on the good side of him you know, like to say he was a true friend you wouldn't trust him that far. I got him to work for me and stuff like that, but some guys I don't know he had a weird sense of direction with. This Goodwin, he's just plain nuts. From what I heard after this murder went down, he went into the hotel and went up to Julie Joncas, now periodically this guy would work as a bartender in a few hotels..

Q.: Goodwin we're talking?

A.: Yea, you know part

Q.: Part-time eh?

A.: Well whenever, they would trust him for a while then he'd screw-up, so apparently he told Julie Joncas, I know something about that - so she went to the police, he had to get his nose in. He said he was at the house some time before and tried to borrow the 4-wheel drive and then he came out with - whatever he came out with, but there is no way we were talking about anything like that. He had to get his nose in there, that's the type of person he is,

right in it but unfortunately ..

Q.: Is Goodwin still around?

A.: Yes he is, he works at G-M and he lives out here in Bewdely. I see him periodically and naturally he should be terrified of me but he's just that stupid, man, this guy wouldn't even move away or anything.

Q.: That's odd eh?

A.: Yea, so if I was the guy to, or my neighbour was to haul off and smash him in the face for what he did you know where we'd end up, we'd be right in the jail. So as to even speak to the guy I just turn my head the other way, whether I'd like to or not.

Q.: I understand.

A.: You know what can you do with some people you just can't let them suffer, there's nothing you can - the guys at G-M tease him all the time as you might imagine, but ..

Q.: How do they tease him?

A.: Well, you know, the guys you messed with you know, the bullshit teasing that something might happen to him... you know, that's what they tell me, but as you can appreciate when your married with two young children your not going to get involved in something like that.

Q.: No of course not.

A.: and the same with the other guys, I doubt if the rest of the fellows that were involved in that even know where he lives.

Q.: Have you any idea why he was motivated to do the thing he did?

A.: Well he's nuts, he had to be the centre of attention, it was the same when he stole the newspapers, he'd buy one and take a handfull and take them to everybody at work and by the same token, he used to rent an apartment from Schultz in Port Hope that's a friend, I know them, that's how I know the guy eh, and they belong to the ski club and what-not, so I was in the Ganaraska one day with I don't know myself and somebody, whatever, and this Goodwin came in and walked up to the bar and he orders a round for everybody in the bar and within a few minutes his little wife came in and she's screaming at him for the rent money, he stole the money out of her purse, so there's like, you ask me why he'd be motivated, why would a man steal his own rent money out of his wife's purse and buy everybody in the bar a drink, and she slapped him in the face. You imagine the guys sitting there drinking someone elses rent money, how they'd feel about it, but knowing what an asshole he is I wouldn't have nothing to do with him. This is the only thing I can describe to you, you know he's nuts.

Q.: I wonder if the coppers put any pressure on him?

A.: Well they would after he'd opened his mouth like that.

Q.: That's what I thought.

A.: You know, like he came into the bar and started telling that Julie a bunch of crap, but you've got to realize these fellows that testified and that were all into drugs so much around there. But that Koehler, he hung around out here with Ben Schultz with the Kaifon(?) you know what I mean the water-skiing and Kaifon(?) OK and he hung around there like with all the wharf-rats or river-rats or lake-rats, but any rate and he was married and he screwed up that relationship because of just hanging around out there he wouldn't work, so Ben ended up having him renting there at his house, renting a room or whatever and the next thing you know the police came to Ben's house, Schultz, we went all the way up to St. Catharines, I went with them and this is hard to think back and realize what we did for this asshole, we went to Kitchener and he was on charges of uttering forged documents or cheques or whatever in a grocery store I guess it was and we had a lawyer up there and it had been several years since this had happened, they had finally tracked him down he'd run away from it and I guess from child support, whatever, they picked up on it again and they arrested him. So, we went to court for him and both Ben and I said from what we knew of him he seemed to be a good enough fellow we never had any trouble with him that way and the judge I guess figured he wasn't going to gain nothing so he let him go on the charges they couldn't identify him ......so the skin of his .. you know, so whatever they let him go on it but later well, we realized that he was guilty of it, but he got off on it, so this is the breaks that some of these guys have had.

Q.: That was before October 18th, /78?

A.: Oh yea, so what happens is the guys like this they get so many charges against them and the police, so they just lay the goods on them, where they've been tracking and what they know of them and they don't bother them because they're small time and then they just pressure them afterwards.

Q.: and they make them set up there own (?)

A.: Yea, that's exactly it, like saying Cousins was there when he wasn't, I mean Hoffman, but you can't believe the amount of lies that when on.

Q.: Why were people so mad at the Choice at the time, that somebody would lie?

A.: Well, you've got to realize that if you get a whole group of policemen, look what they did with me and my wife, they came out here, we were back togegher, and they came in and just walked through my house three times.

Q.: Without a warrant(?)

A.: Oh yes, just walked right in and one time we wer lying on the couch, I had three, my other three children are grown up now, and we were lying on the couch watching TV and Paul came in in a uniform, I didn't know who he was at the time, and he came in and he had a; a fella had stolen my truck, I don't know who the hell the guy is but he had stolen it and they found it so they wanted me to testify and I said look I got my truck back now whatever you want to do I'm not going all the way to Kitchener, whatever he came here for it wasn't over the truck because they had the guy without me they had his finger prints on it and everything else, so there wasn't much point in me driving all the way up there I had already spent a couple of hundred dollars getting it back, at any rate I didn't want the guy crucified, but I still think he should leave things alone that don't belong to him. That was once, and then McReelis and Inspector Cousins, they came here, and my daughters and my son and a friend of mine were here and I kicked them out, so did my friend, they walked right in, I have an intercom system the whole bit in my house eh, and I told them don't go around to the back because I have a swimming pool dug out there. I recognized him I seen this little car come in the yard and I didn't know who it was but I seen McReelis and he wasn't dressed in a uniform he was dressed in a suit. There's a lot goes on here that your going to find hard to believe when you get into this, that they were fencing jewels upstairs and furs.

Q.: At the Queen's?

A.: Yes, and I can't prove it but this is what I'm told and this is why they weren't looking after he business. Bill was supposed to have up to 15 people selling drugs for him and there was kids and I know that his sons, not his sons but his brothers and his sister were doing it in High School, Potters(?) told me, and what else oh yes they just send them off to one of the clothiers in Port Hope and Matiyek told me that's Bill, that the guy that fronted him for the drugs was that clothier, because Bill wouldn't have any money he'd have it spent.

Q.: The guy who fronted..

A.: Yep, and that's McReelis's father-in-law

Q.: Father-in-law or son-in-law?

A.: Son-in-law.

Q.: OK, you don't know the guys name eh?

A.: Now don't get me wrong, there's only two clothiers, I think it's O'Neil.

Q.: O'Neil? The name's O'Neil? That's the police chief?

A.: I know, but there's also another O'Neil there.

Q.: Not in the same family though?

A.: I don't know, but it's pretty rotten, it's pretty rotten and McReelis when I had, I'm trying to think of his name, I hired Lifeso as a lawyer and I was trying to find out through the lawyer to go for my kids and get things in court and go for my divorce and that and it was McReelis who was the under-cover, so called detective, he used the police equipment to find out where they were and whatnot, I paid the lawyer and through him paid McReelis .......he's pretty shady.

Q.: So McReelis was supposed to be a private investigator?

A.: Well no, he was doing it on police officers time but yes, he was a private investigator.

Q.: So you paid McReelis?

A.: Yes

Q.: Through the lawyer?

A.: Yea, like he checked where she was so we could get the legal action started because she left with the kids and the whole bit you know.

Q.: So your wife had left with the kids, of course you had the right to custody and so on, or the right to at least argue for custody?

A.: So I hired Lifeso to defend me and well I think I got a hold of him before, before I was in jail because when they came they just put me in jail, they picked me up, but I hired Lysel to get the divorce action started.

Q.: Lifeso is in town there is he?

A.: He's in Cobourg I think.

Q.: How do you spell his name do you remember?

A.: Bill Lifeso I think, so and this McReelis he's as shady as you can get.

Q.: I believe you.

A.: Oh, I could tell you stories but there's no point in telling you stories, I went to jail over hitting him with a bat if you can believe that.

Q.: You hit him with a bat?

A.: Yes, and he's been, he just wouldn't leave me alone..

Q.: When did you hit McReelis with a bat?

A.: Yea, on John Street

Q.: On John Street, when did you do that?

A.: That was after Matiyek was dead.

Q.: Oh I see.

A.: Yep, he'd be in my house here, come in and just -- my sister-in-law, Rick's wife, he'd terrorize her, she tried to run him over, she backed out of the driveway in front of the restaurant where she worked, he was trying to date her eh.

Q.: McReelis was doing that?

A.: Yea, and she backed out the driveway and nearly ran into the ditch trying to run him over.

Q.: That's Sharon Sauve?

A.: Yea, but he made her life miserable.

Q.: The son-of-a-bitch.

A.: Yea, yea, you know the little house they had, they had a wire-tap underneath the bed and they had the cameras across the road from the new house there and she phoned me and screaming, ya I can appreciate her position, but the time I got there there was a cruiser sitting there you know they were definitely listening to her conversations through their tap there and there was and I just took the wires out that were in there and threw them out on the ground but it wouldn't help they would probably still have a tap.

Q.: So you actually found equipment in the place? Good lord.

A.: Oh yes, it was right under her bed. That's, and everybody went through hell around here and a lot of the people that should have testified wouldn't and the people that like, you can't go around claiming that all these people were scum-bags but I'm telling you that I haven't seen one that testified there that wasn't - that aren't - I don't believe they should be breathing lets put it that way.

Q.: Tell me who could testify who would tell the truth? Is there anyone who should have been called and wasn't, in your view?

A.: Well, Castinette, if he's telling the truth, which he has to be because he told me in jail, be quiet I'll tell you what's happened, your brother was there that night then whatever happened like the sequence, you'll have to talk to him to get his story and its been quite a few years now. As I said he told me, what Stewart said, what went on in court, now Stewart just stood back and watched this guy and then put himself in his place, now this Castinette he was taken into custody because he wasn't supposed to be in the hotel.

Q.: OK, hang on a second, Nig was taken into custody, on October 18th after 11:00 p.m.?

A.: He wasn't supposed to be in there at all.

Q.: He was taken into custody?

A.: I think he's doing week-ends or something.

Q.: Holy Shit. This never came out.

A.: Well that's what I say this guy tells me, in jail, within a day of the murder what Stewart claims a year or so later that he did, so if you can get this guy and if he'd talk to you, you know that would be the guy that I would

Q.: How is it that none of the officers saw this person there, they all claim that they did not see him there.

A.: Did you talk to Bill Wakely?

Q.: Well why do you ask?

A.: Well Bill Wakely, I know the family OK I played hockey with Bill against him and right at this moment you might get some conversation with Bill, the way things are with the police there, he's the head of the police association of Port Hope and they do not like Mr. McReelis at all. Now I asked when I was in there over McReelis over the bad situation, like this guy would just not leave me alone, every time, with a big grin he'd stand in front of me all the time. I asked them the story that I heard that there was, the night Matiyek got killed there was 10,000 bennys sold to Bill by Freddy Jones and the other lad that were in the hotel there drinking, have you heard this story?

Q.: Yea, I've heard it, I don't know too much of the details, go ahead.

A.: Well, apparently Bill had bought 10,000 bennys that sounds like a lot a big figure to me but I don't know anything about drugs so I cant tell you if it's big or not, so I said to Bill - What happened that night, why weren't you made sargeant instead of McReelis? - because the story is that McReelis is as dirty as hell, so I want to know Bill from you, just look me in the face and tell me. He says Larry none of us like him any more than you do, but I went in there, I was first there and within minutes they jerked me out of there and shoved McReelis in, he says about the 10,000 bennys I don't know what happened to them. Whether he doesn't know or won't say, but that's to me, he might talk to you.

Q.: I'll tell you we've heard this from other sources but your the first person to put any detail to it. I'm talking about the drugs that what's his name, Matiyek would have had drugs on him.

A.: Well this is supposed to be what happened and according to Wakely, Bill Wakely he didn't see them or he doesn't know what happened, he said remember Larry I was out of there with him......at that time McReelis didn't have any stripes at all, other than just being a bad, I'd say he's nuts to be quite honest. You know the story about the sawed-off shotgun and...

Q.: What's McReelis doing now?

A.: He's supposed to be a detective, assistant to the chief or something.

Q.: Inspector, yea, is he doing anything else though? Like, why does he have commercial vehicles?

A.: I don't know, I can't see how he can afford what he's got.

Q.: What kind of guy is he, does he have a wild life style, does he party a lot?

A.: I don't know, he doesn't go anywhere without her any more, he's constant now.

Q.: He goes nowhere without Barb eh?

A.: Yea, I don't know her name I've just seen her the once in the beer store, I went in to get some beer and he kind of, you know, not that I was going to do anything to him, so I thought well you've got a weird life style. I've badgered him back over the years you might know, you know whenever I'd go to Canadian Tire and he'd pull in and would start goading me and so I goaded him and things like this nature eh. He threatened me.

Q.: He did, what was he..?

A.: He threatened to kill me, he's going to kill me.

Q.: McReelis said that?

A.: Yea, he went to..

Q.: Will you swear a statement to that?

A.: I certainly will.

Q.: OK

A.: And there's a good chance that I can get some witnesses to it. He also went to..

Q.: How did he threaten to kill you?

A.: Well when you come outside the court room in Port Hope an upstairs court room ...

Q.: When was this?

A.: Well this was after Matiyek, when Rick and them were in jail and I'd gone after him with a bat.

Q.: Oh I see.

A.: And so I'm in court over it and a German walked out in the hall and I was down the first step and I was with a guy named David Allison and Allison wanted to go right back in the court room, and McReelis said I'm going to get you and he pointed his finger at me, it's the second time he's threatened to shoot me, the first time is he told me the day I came out, there was three policemen there that day, there was two apparently a man and a woman supposed to be retired and the next thing you know their on the street so they were watching me and I don't know why, other than being drunk at the time, in one of those moods where you haven't got too much to live for you think at the time and I was in town with a girl who was doing my house cleaning.

Q.: Sorry about that, just had to get them directed to the right door.

A.: OK. The day, there's a Ron Welch a fella I know a local, he was here the day McReelis and Cousins came in and I tried to tape their conversation but they left and I haven't got much on that, in fact I haven't got anything other than name calling on the tape.

Q.: You've got that tape?

A.: I don't know, I'll have to look around, there's not much on it, a couple of words.

Q.: Who was calling who names?

A.: The both of us.

Q.: OK, good.

A.: But you know, and then Cousins said there's no point in talking to him, and my friend said, that's what he's been trying to tell you for the last half hour when you stormed through the door. Apparently, after, I dont't know how long after McReelis went to, they were trying to place Ronnie. Ronnie is quite a fat fellow and he has a moustache so in McReelis's eyes or a police man's eyes the way they think, they figure he was a biker, you know like A biker, and he's just a welder and a local, but a lot of these welders get a little overweight.

Q.: This fellow Ron Welch?

A.: Yea, so any rate he tracked him down through the motor vehicle because he had an impaired driving, no - well I guess that's criminal record all right..

Q.: No it isn't, it's not criminal.

A.: So anyway he goes up to Bowmanville on Brown St. to Welch's

Q.: That's McReelis goes up to Bowmanville?

A.: Yea and he, now if you can believe what people tell you, he goes in there and Mr. Welch and Ronnie meet him there and he goes I'm McReelis and Ronnie says well what do you want, and his Dad says well you must want him you don't want me I haven't done anything so McReelis goes in there and sat at the table and he wanted to see his guns, Ronnie's guns, well with the Welch's they're into the Skeet and Trap and they're very good at it you know they spend a lot of time at it, so any rate if you want to see their guns well your going to be there all day.

Q.: Ha, ha, so let's talk about it eh?

A.: Yea, like don't talk about my golf clubs or your going to see them, or fishing equipment this type of deal, so finally Ronnie said what are you here for what do you want. Now this is the whole shit story that Ronnie told me, whether it's true or not, and he said McReelis broke down and cried and he said that son-of-a-bitch is going to kill me and Ronnie said who's going to kill you and he said Sauve, Larry, that's me and he said well what makes you think that and Ronnie's Dad said, well why don't you leave the fucking guy alone, from what I heard you won't leave him alone every place he goes your after him. I've never threatened him, I wouldn't do that, I wouldn't be that damned stupid to trust him. It would be dumb, I wouldn't do it, there's no mileage in something like that.

Q.: McReelis is better off if the system deals with him, there is a system and

it's there.

A.: It's coming down on him, I can see it.

Q.: Well I'd love to take a statement from you suggesting, where you suggest anyway that he threatened you, he threatened you twice you said, and he said?

A.: That he was going to shoot me. On two different occasions. I'd like to see him try. I have my firearms back and I've had a hell of a time keeping them believe me and I'm constantly being stopped now, so I have to watch what I do and keep it in a fine line.

Q.: Do you have any record besides the assault?

A.: Oh yes, there was an impaired and the McReelis thing, and believe it or not I got 3 months for killing the god-damned Doberman next door. Apart from that no drugs I don't do them - they tried that you know.

Q.: The law? (?)

A.: Oh yes they did. I know your more interested in helping Comeau I can appreciate that and I'm giving you all this bullshit.

Q.: No, no, and your brother.

A.: Yes, I know, I know they both..

Q.: Was it a put-up job Larry?

A.: By these prejuced police and people, 100% fella, 100%.

Q.: It sure looks like it.

A.: You know Comeau, not Comeau - McLeod, the one they call Big Jeff there, well they put me in the cell with, this is after the murder, within 9 months my life with my first wife here was just a living hell, it'd been hell all the way along but nevertheless I was still happy and subsequently, I had the same lawyer that Ricky had eh, the second time, she charged me with assault, I never laid a hand on that person and they came and picked me up at work and the whole pile of shit was dismissed, not withdrawn, dismissed and two O.P.P. officers lied on the stand and there was nothing done to them and Jack Wilson was the lawyer and he did his homework he just came down and took a picture of it and .... so if you think there isn't a put-up, this is what they tried to do so that I'd be discredited and I couldn't help Rick.

Q.: When was this?

A.: This is while he was still in jail.

Q.: Before the trial?

A.: Yep, and I was in jail for 4 months I think or 6 months with Rick and McLeod and them in Cobourg. Now what happened there, while I was in there and I'll tell you right in court, Jeff McLeod said if we go down for this and you know Larry, this will be the biggest crime of the century if we go down for it and convicted of this. The fact that they would be found guilty(?) -- that's before anything before they were tried. Now you've got that a thousand eye witnesses that McLeod said that what he's telling you that they were not guilty. Now I know the man's dead and I know some of them were there, some of them weren't there, and I know from what Rick has told me, the odd thing he's told me, there was a couple of guys that were there and one case that had been there, they didn't identify him and the man's dead now through no fault of his own but someone else ran over him, and they never did pick this other guy out, whoever it was I don't know, so there's how bad a deal they got. Some of these women that testified, I don't know why Rick and Jeff and Nutty would have anything to do with them, there just scum I think, you know. You know the old saying I wouldn't bury them with your shovel.

Q.: Who had it in for these guys, who set them up?

A.: The police.

Q.: Tell me about Matiyek,s gun, where was the shotgun, why wasn't the shotgun with him that night?

A.: Which one, the Derringer?

Q.: The small one, yea?

A.: Yea, it was a little double barrel cut into a Derringer. I don't know he always carried that with him, and he had this other hand gun, I had seen it once, the guy that owned the hotel, Neil or something, he had apparently given it to him. One time I was in there and a couple of big fellows came in and Neil asked Bill to come over and back him up, now they looked like collector type or whatever, with their big, long coats, it was something heavy whatever it was and Bill was acting with Neil like buddy-buddy you know and I think he gave him the gun more for that, to protect Neil, but I don't know, didn't want to know.

Q.: You saw that happen though?

A.: Yes, I was there and the two guys said what they'd do to Matiyek or something.....then they were going to come back and see Neil when Bill wasn't around, so whatever was going on there. You know Dave Hills, the bartender, I know Dave I've been over to his place when I've gone on these Indian ...(?)and I's go over there for a few minutes, and I know these guys they've got their drugs, they sell them.

Q.: They sell drugs?

A.: Yea they do, so you see what goes on.

Q.: Dave Hills sells drugs?

A.: Oh yea, it's through the whole system, there's a pick up goes on out here, out in Bewdey here and I've seen, like these people don't just come out here to drive around, they're not out here on a business trip or visiting relatives, it's a pick up, and I've seen two different guys like one guy in Dave's car, actually there's three that I know of and I'm pretty sure that's what they're up to but I can't swear to it. You know what the story is, there's a big drug deal that goes on there and the Satan's Choice boys weren't welcome in it. Whatever Rick was on, the little bit he was using, I can't tell you I didn't ask but obviously he was on a bit and I think Matiyek had control of it. If you can get Nutty to tell you he would know more about it than I would but it's pretty heavy with all those people around that hotel. Its easier to get drugs in there than cigarettes........

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

April 1, 9:20 p.m.

Went to Southern Ontario Newspaper Guild, 1253 Queen St. East, left letter for Peter Murdoch. Plate on car at side of building is WRY 1 - Toyota.

At back of Building:

WRY 1

385 LSO

644 FZ

WHR 880

713 NYN

1) Names of persons who attended Toronto Clubhouse on the night of October 18, 1978 -- especially those who might have overheard a telephone conversation between Sauve and Comeau.

2) Names of SCMC persons who were at the Queen's Hotel on October 18, 1978.

3) A written summary detailing in precise, truthful detail exactly what Gary Comeau remembers of the night of October 18, 1978, starting at the point where he received a call from Rick Sauve.

- Susan Smith saw the whole thing with B.M. (Bruce) ....

- find S.S. - she sasw the whole thing

- she owns a beauty parlour in Peterbrough

- one of the instructors at Warkworth knows B.M.

- Racicot sat with Susan Smith

- the instuctor inside is inside

- the instructor tried to get B.M. to come forward

- Racicote wasn't bull shitting

- the insturctor knows S.S.

- she was approached by the instructor, she said she didn't want to get involved.

- We have to get to S.S.

- S.S. said "oh Fuck" and turned

- that night many of the guys

- there were several individuals who are

- he can think of 3 or 4 guys who didn't go to Port Hope

Left Gary at 4:05 p.m.

April 2, 4:50 - Merv Blaker - Statement.

- Rick was called to the table where Bill Matiyerk was sitting

- Matiyek caled Rick over

- they were talking

- I didn't see how they were talking

- I didn't hear any thing but I saw movements that indicated they were talking

- I thought Nutty wandered over there

- he was at a table more south of me

- Comeau was S.W. of me

- he wandered ove to Bill Matiyek's table

- I remember that girl being there but I can't remember at what time

- she left or something

- and then I was talking to Rick Galbraith

- then I guess the shooting happened

- when Lorne shot Matiyek

- it was from behind me that Lorne came

- I had my back to the North side

- I looked to my right and somehow

- his back wass to me

- then the shooting happened

- when I looked I looked right at Bill Matiyek - he was already falling toward floor.

- I didn't see no gun

- the table was there

- Lorne went right out the door by Bill Matiyek

- I think everyone was wanting to get out of there

- I was pretty fast

- there was people - it seemed like everyone was getting out of there

- I was in the middle of this

- I didn't talk to anyone

- I went to my car

- it was an old blue station wagon I had, I think it was a Rambler

- Ricky jumped in

- some of the other guys, Nutty and Jeff, they got in

- we then left and everyone was pretty upset

- I was parked on John jStreet

- I went down John street

- we stopped at a garage off401 along Hwy. 115

- Nutty was bleeding

- I went down John to Augusta then to Bramlea and then to Hwy. #2 out to 401

- we drove along 401 to 115 then turned off 115 North

- we stayed at a gas station

- Rick went into washroom with Nutty

- Nutty was bleeding badly

Did anyone discuss what happened?

- I was pretty upset, Rick was upset, we tought it would be good to leave for a night or two.

- everyone was in shock

- everyone was surprised it happened

- it was pretty quiet in the car.

This statemet was given to me by Merv Blaker on April 2nd. 1992.

Merv: April

The meeting that Terry Hall had with Rick and Merv, Hall said that Rick

was trying to provoke a fight when it was the other way around.

(1) I saw some old man, dressed grubby, this is not Cap Hunter, it was some other old man.

(2) Armand Sanguigni in Pinball room talking to Outlaws

(3) Larry Hurren at bar on North side of bar - he was East side, left of me.

(4) Jeff McLeod at the bar, sort of - he was on the stools

(5) Rick Galbraith tending bar

(6) Sue Foote South end of bar (when I came in)

(7) Jamie Hanna at the bar table and around there moving all over

(8) Kathy Cotgrave, I saw her but didn't know her at the time

(9) Dave Gillispie, in other room - he walked over to our table - he was asking about M/C parts.

(10) Rick Sauve

(11) Bill Matiyek

(12) Lorne Campbell

(13) Sonny Bronson, I asked him if Neil Clelland ..

(14) Fred Jones

(15) Gary Comeau

(16)

How many guys came down from Toronto?

- not too sure how many guys came down

- doesn't remember Dave

- Sam McReelis reminds one of a person who watched too much TV

- My Parole Officer was Bill Dunbar

Police onetime raided my house - they were all at my house and the phone rang - I answered the phone - it was Julie Joncas she was calling to warn me that police were about to raid my house. I told her they were already there. I saw her another time at the bar and she said she had overheard it at the bar that police would raid my house. She used to hand around with Leo Powell.

- I was never around Bill Matiyek much

- I talked to him sometimes

- he dropped up to our place once - had a drink and left - mid 70's.

- I used to get pulled over quite a bit

- McReelis hassled me by pulling me over once in a while needlessly

- Once when my mother left our house a car followed her when she was leaving, it was a police car, they pulled her over.

- I heard: McReelis pulled ovser a girl from the newspaper - Sam took out his shotgun to search the Van.

- there was quite a few people at the bar I didn't know

- Neil Clelland would have been close to 30 years old

- Bill Goodwin used to go out with Susan Jones

- Karen Blaker lives in Port Hope, she works in a nursing home.

- Merv is nervous about the outlaws

- Some guy named "Bimma" beat up 4 people - 2M/2F at Queen's after hours

- one girl had a bad cut, she told Merv that she wanted to charge the man named "Bemma"

- Richard Price was sort of an idiot

- I never trusted David

- Bill Lavoie is crazy

- Bobby Cousins was OK - he was more sensible than Lavoie

Left Merv's at 7:30 p.m.

Met Merv at CNE Colliseum Motorcycle Swap meet and show.

There were approx. 80-100 Outlaws - a dozen Loners, Iron Wings, Last Chance - and about 40 BDR's and about a dozen Para-Dice Riders.

Merv pointed out Neil Clelland to me. I followed Clelland when he left. There was a 3-car convoy: 102 JFD, 733 BAA, 765 NZR. These are the plates of the three vehicles in which a group of Outlaws departed.

Clelland is 6'2", reddish hair worn in long ponytail; receeding hairline. Two rings on left hand including wedding ring, pierced left ear, fairly slim - 185 lbs. - to average build, sharp features, long well-shaped nose, beard with large moustache

Doug Shortreed, Port Hope - 885-4184. Doug owns a few buildings around town bit of Real Estate etc.

Queen's Hotel - October 18, 1978 -- September 30, 1991 - Elaine began follow-up.

Mick Lowe - wrote "Conspiracy of Brothers" in 1988 - Vermillion River - his wife says there is a defence committee "The Comeau/Sauve Defence Committee". Port Hope Evening Guide and Cobourg Evening Star each paper ran an ad from the defence committee on Friday September 20. It was full page ad seeking additional evidence.

Howard Kerbel says he will get information. Gary is in Milhaven.

NOTE TO FILE

Lorne Campbell shot Bill Matiyek in the Queen's Hotel Bar. Gary Comeau and Rick Sauve were at the same table. Comeau and Sauve were convicted of lst. degree murder. "Tee Hee" Hoffman (David) of Kitchener was originally charged but since then police wire taps theretofore held secretly, revealed that Hoffman was in Kitchener around the time of the murder. Hoffman was given a new trial but he copped a plea for time served. He sat 4 years as a accessory after the fact, March 21, 1983, Hoffman after a year out went back to jail for a year.

-Brian Geeenspan was the appellant lawyer for David (Tee Hee) Hoffman.

-Sauve and Comeau are still in jail service a twenty-five year sentence

-Hoffman was released in April 1984 from Collins Bay after serving 42 months. His parole was completed in March of 1978 uneventfully. He is an accountant for a Kitchener fitness club. Married in 1986. He was still, in 1987, a member of SCMC.

April 7, 1992 spoke to Gary Comeau - he says Mr. W is ready to come forward

Talked to David Hoffman and asked him to contact his lawyers Brian Greenspan and Edward MArtin and instruct them to send us the files "Evidence Files". Also talked to Ed Martin in his Mississauga office. I asked him for information and he said only on his client's consent. I told him that was forth coming.

- his clearance to the fence line has been revoked

- Comeau's cell has been searched because he swore out an affidavit in the defence of an inmate

- Comeau has been turned down for his transfer to Beaver Creek

- he has also been forbidden his fence clearance

- he told people at the CSC that he is innocent of his charges and should not be in jail

- he raised the issue of Sauve being sent to Minimum

- at Warkworth, CSC people are avoiding confrontation

- guards seem supportive

- Gary says some people believe something is going down on..

- Gary called from the range

- Gary has to stay in his cell

- his job duties have been rejected

- he normally works as a grounds man

- Gary has said he is not reporting to the shop

- Gary says they have "tormented me enough"

- Gary told Maureen

- Gary's cell was ransacked

- Gary gave a statement

- Gary says his trouble is not coming from inside

- no damage was done to Gary's cell

- the search was not ordered by local people

- an inmate and an instructor were going at it

- CSC and the Crown Attorney's not charging the inmate

- regular CSC guards searched Gary's cell

- his cell was the only cell apart from the involved person

- a few people have been fishing to find out what is happening on Gary's case

- he might be walking down the road and somebody will stop and ask him what is happening with his case

April 13, 1992 - P.C. Ken Wilson at his home at 5 Howard St. in Port Hope

- Wilson and MacDonald were together when call came from dispatch on October 18, 1978.

- We were at 155 Toronto Road at extreme north corner

- We got call - Ed Green was supplying dispatcher

- His dispatch was that there were bikers in the hotel and there is going to be trouble.

- We were met by a guy in the front of the hotel

- We had no idea there had been a shooting

- It probably took 3-4 minutes

- Don't remember who it was, I knew the guy at the time

- Galbraith it was, Galbraith had a beard at the time

- Peart was in the hotel, McReelis and I think Peart

- I went in the door on the west side - as soon as you go in the door he was three feet on the right

- I don't remember if there was anyone near him

- there was no gun

- there were 12 to 15 people near the bar area

- Rod Stewart near the bar

- where were the bodies' hands

- there was a hell of a pile of blood

- it seems to me there was a towel on him

- McReelis arrived shortly after I did

- 6 months to a year prior to that we got called in on a disturbance

- a year before a good looking Italian guy and Matiyek wee shouting with each other - I pulled up and they calmed down

- I gave them a little lecture(?) and they moved on

- Matiyek was a fair size, I remember him taking on two guys, he was always fairly good with me. I don't know his family.

- there was a "25" and Neil Kaplan gave it to him

- McReelis was contacted by station, McReelis asked me to take the investigation. McReelis said he didn't want to do investigation. Suddently Sam was there - there was no opportunity - no - can't remember.

- We initialy took names and addresses

- I do not remember

- Gord Matiyek came to hotel. He was going to get a gun and blow everyone away.

- We said you are his brother, where the hell were you?

- don't remember ambulance coming

- MacDonald might have been near the body

- I was on my own taking notes and getting information from witnesses

- the furniture was upset

- I don't know how

- body was close to wall

- Bill told me a curious situation - one of the Satan's Choice guys. Bill was saying, I don't know why McReelis covered that up.

- Bill said he was ordered to take pictures and he was surprised McReelis lied

- there was an O.P.P. guy on the scene

- MacDonald blows which ever way the wind blows

- I got 100% on my evidence(?) course at Police College

- Sam and I didn't see eye to eye

- some people busted their guts

- If MacDonald saw an opportunity to get ahead he would take it

- We tried to maintain the witnesses rights in the bar

- - We had a certain capacity to maintain the scene

- I was in the Foyer talking to Gord Matiyek

- I've known Dave Hills for about 26 years - he was one of the young fellas raising shit around town. Dave Hills, he gets into trouble.

Recently:

- Hoath was under the gun for awhile

- Hoath hasn't had a araise in quite a time

- many people are seeking to get Sam McReelis into the Chief's job

- McReelis once threatened to plant drugs on a dispatcher to get rid of the guy

- McReelis -- threatens people

- Hitler had his cronies -- some people will compromise for

Ken Wilson, Box 473, Port Hope, L1A 3Z3

- Murray Devine is in charge of 4th. Platoon. Murray is divorced twice, now lives with a non-white. Murray Devine is gifted.

- doesn't rember but thinks Devine

- Devine and Earl Johns were charged

- Bill Goodwin - Ken laid the charges - someone was saying some papers were missing from the box, Goodwin was stealing papers. Later at the Ganaraska Goodwin was mouthy. Goodwin was charged with impaired. -- I knew Goodwin. Bill Goodwin is back in the area. April 12, 1992, a week ago I was in the Fish and Chip store, Bill was there and he was mad at me.

- 5 years ago a student from Trent University was asked to do a survey on the Downtown area. Leo Powell was on the Council, he set it up. The guy worked at the Board of Trade office. The guy was part Indian and about 30. Nancy King (or White) was working at Board of Trade. The guy came along to Police and said Powell assaulted(?) him in front of Nancy. Nancy confirmed when Ken interviewed. Sam came to me and said 'drop the charges'. I had got guy to do private information.

- Peart was the only guy I was present when he was interviewed

- Peart was busted by Ken for Drug Store BE

- he lived near Matiyek

- Inspector "Clouseau", I wasn't that impressed with Cousens.

- the only interview I can recollect was Peart's

- Sam and Clouseau kept going back and back

- there wasn't much that Peart had to offer

- Kathy Peart/Cotgrave

- Stewart was living with someone from the bar scene

- Stewart got Impaired Driving 4 years ago

- if there was a gun on Matiyek someone could have got the gun into

- We went downstairs and saw Colt "25" handgun that Ken owns

- Ken took it out and held it in hand and we photographed it

- O'Neil wasn't experienced and didn't instruct us to take good notes

- I have had only 2 contacts with McReelis in 4 months

- McReelis - his friend is DAVE KELLY

- Kelly is missing 3 fingers, ten years ago Kelly was

- Kelly was caught drinking years ago

- McReelis caught him, McReelis used this situation to control Kelly

- Dave Kelly is McReelis's maintenance man

- Ken is wondering if the guy could have been moved without being observed

- My impression was that Neil Caplan had given the gun to Matiyek

- If MacDonald had seen the gun Ken would have known about it

- MacDonald was new at the time, he recently had accidents

- We weren't that happy with Powell

- there were a lot of problems in the hotel

- the RCMP had raided the hotel, they were warned

- Was it not Shorty that knew Sam warned Powell of raid coming up?

- Powell isn't a stalwart type individual

- Powell came back to the Hotel

- Jamie Hanna is the Queen of air-heads

- Kathy Cotgrave

- Peart was a lot smarter than the average dude at the hotel

- Peart was busted for stealing pills which he intended to sell

- Dave Hills likes to know what's going around

- Dave Hills' common-law

The meetings at the Ganaraska, Ken had nothing to do with.

- Paul Spencer was a dispatcher, we can talk to him. He is a guy McReelis threatened. Spencer lives with his Dad in Bowmanville.

- McReelis is a very motivated person. His Dad was from Ireland, Ken's family knew Sam McReelis Sr. Sr. was a very interesting person. Sam has an older brother working at GM. Sam has rental properties at Chickendence(?) Barb makes OK dollars, she is a worrier. He stewed over the shotgun thing. He is egocentric. Police Association blackens(?).

- Powel has a record, Powell's lawyer attacked the Indian guy on his (?) so Powell got a sentence. Sam has limited social life. He applies his talents in the right areas. I ran a plate once and it came out as being Rolly Harris's plate, it was in Sam's driveway.

* New Witnesses

- the ambulance attendants, old nurses at the time might know

* Mrs. Eleanor Wilson - 885-2925

* Mrs Green

* Shirley Hall who became Shirley Elliot. Shirley Hall was Larry Halls' first wife, he or she might know who were ambulance attendants.

- after the initial night Ken didn't get involved

- Ken was involved in security in the preliminary

- the case didn't help Sam McReelis in any significant way

- McReelis was the only guy with rank when the new Chief arrived

- the whole investigation was taken out of Ken's hands

- Gary Woods knew Terry Hall very well at the time

- "Woody" his nick. Terry Hall - Woody organized drug raids in the 70's

- "Woody" was the instrument of the Big Raid that Sauve told us about

Left Wilson's home at 3:12 p.m.

Visited Heroes had lunch

4:30 p.m. set-up observations at 97 Mill for Cotgrave

5:20 p.m. checked Walton's and Ganaraska for Kathy Cotgrave's car

- went to book store and chatted with Rod Stewart

- he has ordered a new Gerry Ball book for me, a new release from Random House

- Rod Stewart bought me a coffee!!!

5:35 p.m. returned to Kathy Cotgrave's -- 6:15 pm no luck

Visited Port Hope Hospital at 6:20 and asked about records

Referred to Ambulance Services - 372-2081, Tim Austin, Cobourg

He was a reluctant witness. His cooperation was nominal. He says he remembers very little and it is a thing he doesn't want to remember. He says he gave a statement to police and that, insofar as he was concerned, was sufficient. He could not remember who interviewed him from police.

Peter knew Peter Labrash and Rod Stewart. He lived between Port Hope and Peterborough and was at a time prior to 1978, the Editor of the Port Hope Newspaper.

Peter knew of Douglas Peart but says he didn't know him well. He knew Leo Powell merely as an owner of the Queen's Hotel.

For some years of his life, Peter worked in a halfway house for the John Howard Society.

On October 18, 1978, Peter Murdoch worked for the Peterborough Examiner. He had visited the Queen's Hotel "a number of times". He was at the Queen's Hotel bar on the evening of Bill Matiyek's death.

He was, at the material time, sitting at the bar next to Rod Stewart and was facing toward the bar.

He observed that a large number of people entered the bar. "All of a sudden the place filled up with some tough looking characters."

He was not looking in the direction of the victim. He heard "a few pops" and became very frightened ("fear overtook me"). "I was in shock".

His memory of the event he says is "very fuzzy" He was "horrified".

He doesn't remember people fleeing the place.

He had a sense the thing "was orchestrated" because "all of a sudden the place filled up with some tough looking characters".

He went with Rod Stewart and Peter Labrash over to the victim's body. "We had a towel or something. Rod was trying to wrap a towel around Matiyek's head. It's all very hazy."

He was roughly four feet away from the deceased, but he doesn't remember the position of the body nor the position of the deceased's hands or arms. He arrived at this position "pretty quickly after the shooting". He does not remember seeing or hearing about any drugs (`bennies') or any weapons on or near the deceased. He is very evasive in his answers to questions.

He has read Mick Lowe's book. He works with a fellow who is a friend of Mick Lowe. He, apart from reading the book, did not follow the Matiyek matter.

He positively did not see any horseshoe of persons forming around Bill Matiyek.

April 15th. - 1:00 p.m. - Bill Wakely/ Mike and Ted

Ted is with me, we are at Heroes on Hwy #2 in Port Hope.

- Bill knows Susan Smith

- Bill was surprised that body wasn't marked off

- never saw too much of McReelis during the night of October 18

- Bill and Moore went to Police Station to evidence room

- Moore asked McReelis if he wanted an O.P.P. inspector on the scene answer was no

- Sam McReelis left the Hotel while Bill was there

- Bill and Moore went to hospital

- Mrs Bowden the night nurse was on

- Metro Matiyek was at the hospital

- all the notebooks were tied up in bundles and put in the safe

- all of Bill's exhibits - he doesn't know

- Bill came out of ident. in '88,1987

- the new guy took the 15-week indent. course, he lasted one year, he didn't get along with McReelis

- McReelis's behaviour has changed

- McReelis took time off to go to Louisiana with Barb about 2 weeks ago

- Bill thinks McReelis should be worried about Milgard case

- McReelis doesn't socialize with the members

- Saturday morning at 5:30 McReelis goes to the Donut for coffee

- Murray Devine is speaking for Sgts. job

- McReelis's reputation has improved since he is no longer doing on-the-street police work

- His wife was principal at Campbellcroft School. There was a break-in. Jim Keiser from O.P.P. investigated with McReelis, Keiser had to tell Sam to F.O.

- Dave Hills is an OK guy thinks Bill

- Bill thinks that it was all a matter between two warring bike clubs, the GHMC and the SCMC.

- Terry Hall and Woody were good friends. Terry would look up Woody and go to his house. Woody was doing good job on Drug investigation. Woody was 45 in October. Woody and Sam are good friends. Woody and Sam did all the Drug work. Sam did things his own way

- Blackie Sauve used to be a vicious kind of guy. He drives a Yellow truck. He has his own Roofing business. Bonnie was Blackie's wife, there were rumours about pictures. Blackie used to drive around with a baseball bat.

- Bill thinks PHPD has good reputation except for Sam's antics

- since the report came out publicly, Sam has changed his attitude, he speaks civily. The report was in the town's hand, only when the public knew about the report did Sam change.

-Collins is now Mayor.

- Kelly shingled Sam's roof, paved his driveway. If Sam said, Kelly there's a pile of shit over there, you eat it ... Kelly is weak and Sam takes advantage of that. If Kelly has a problem he would go right to Sam. Kelly wears a colostomy bag. Kelly came on in 1971.

- Was Kelly at the hospital?

- The day after (Oct.19) a bunch of guys were called in to search area.

- showed Bill his statements made at trial about saying he wsn't surprised to find gun.

- Moore must be asked about where he got information enough to suggest to Bill Wakely about the gun.

- Because they were SCMC -

- McReelis built a nice big new house shortly after the trial. Barb has been accused of being as dishonest as Sam.

*David Kelly says that Sam got good marks at Police College via Purolator - he sent the tests to Barb, Barb filled them out and Sam got through school via Purolator and Barbara McReelis. Sam failed Sgt.'s exam. Barbara will be the Principal of the new school. He met Barb at a school in Bowmanville. Bill policed in Bowmanville in 1969, he knew Sam McReelis Sr. Barbara comes from Port Hope, she lived on Hwy. 28. Barbara makes the snowballs and Sam throws them. Barbara was the one who pushed Sam toward the Police Dept.

- Bill says people would not be surprised nor dismayed if Sam ever bites the dust on criminal charges.

- Chalmers liked Sam and was going to make him Chief if anything happened to Hoath. Bill talked to Chalmers and he seemed to have second thoughts.

- Sam has been losing weight lately

- Sam is getting quite thin

- Dave Kelly is Sam's best friend

- Earl John is a candidate for Chief. Earl has applied for chief's jobs in other places - he came close.

- Bill and colleagues have complained to Inspectors - they say why is sam still with you.

- Sam has a Clint Eastwood picture in his office.

Bill left at 4:12 p.m., April 15.

Note to file:

1. Kelly is Sam's best friend

2. Kelly would do Sam's dirty work

3. Kelly was at the Hotel on Oct. 18,1978

4. Shortreed was Kelly's partner

5. Shortreed was not entirely helpful

8:23 PM Talked to Gary Comeau

Laid out the facts of life under no uncertain terms.

Asked Gary who we should be putting pressure on to get the names of witnesses who can put Matiyek's gun into his hands, if indedd that is what they saw. He says the person is himself. Told Gary to shit or get off the pot -- get us the names of the witnesses who saw the gun in Matiyek's hand.

He says there are some people who are leary about us and that we may be working for the RCMP or the OPP or someone who would wish them harm for some reason. I told him that such people who play the "cops and robbers cloak and dagger" games should go back to the cartoon they came from.

He says he will get the ball rolling.

Gary says Bruce Martin was allegedly at the Queen's Hotel on October 18, 1978. He was not sitting with Rasicot. Bruce Martin lives near Port Hope. John Hill has all the details in terms of address and phone numbers.

8:55 off

9:21 Gary has called again. He says that he has talked to Larry and that Larry is speaking to Mr. "W" tonight. I told Gary to call Larry and tell him that I would be available any time tonight.

9:29 pm Larry called from 297-7388. He says he will call in an hour to an hour and 15 minutes. He will try and set up an appointment for tonight with Mr. "W". He will call either way.

1:00 am, April 17, 1992-- There has been no call from "Larry". Phone has been kept free the whole time.

April 16, 1992 NOTE TO FILE

In the context of the true facts we have uncovered, it is a preposterous thing that Gary Comeau and the other accused were ever convicted and imprisoned on the charges brought by the action Regina vs McLeod et al. This is not a cavalier statement. This is capable of proof. Not only preposterous, but a miscarriage of justice. This too is capable of proof.

What we have found attractive about the Comeau/Sauve case is that the appeal process used to date has both failed due to its inadequacy and has obviated certain processes, thus finally making it apparent to the accused and counsel that a proper investigation would have to be conducted. In all instances, including the Crown's case against Gary Comeau, the defence against the Crown's case, and in all subsequent appeals, the matter has never been argued on the basis of true fact resulting from a proper investigation. That includes the Crown's investigation which is likely one of the most improperly conducted Canadian murder investigations of all time.

The investigation into Mr. Matiyek's death was botched from the moment of the arrival of police. This is capable of proof. Constable Kenneth Wilson did not in any way preserve the crime scene. In fact, he was told to do other things by his superior officer Sam McReelis. From that period through to the time of the autopsy done on the deceased Mr. Matiyek, the scene and all physical evidence from the scene and of the event were out of the control of any law enforcement agency. For example, no police officer accompanied the deceased to the hospital, and it was not until after clothing had been removed from the deceased and after 10:00 pm the next day that Matiyek's weapon -- the weapon which was in fact in his left hand just prior to his being shot -- was discovered within an inside pocket of Matiyek's jacket. This is capable of proof, unequivocally. Furthermore, during those periods of time when protective control was lost over the crime scene and elements of physical evidence from the crime scene, they were corrupted. Testimonial evidence suggests that i) Matiyek was in possession of drugs and ii) that his weapon contained nine cartridges. This we will also prove.

This only goes part of the way toward proving that a sufficient portion of the evidence viewed by the jury in the Regina vs McLeod et al trial, was erroneous evidence or evidence achieved by wrongful means tantamount to a miscarriage of justice.

However, from the evidence which we have gathered we believe from that we can build an attack against the Crown's case that will demonstrate that a more fundamental imperfection was put before jurists. Not only was there fraudulent evidence put before the jury to prove mens rea -- by way of obstruction, threats and corruption which is also capable of proof -- but the Crown's officers by direct and indirect actions, destroyed exculpatory evidence which would have proven the absolute lack of mens rea.

This latter fact is a matter of criminal wrongdoing which carries the potential of extreme penalties ranging from 14 years imprisonment to penalties commensurate with those of the charges to which the obstructed evidence relates. Concurrently, the perpetrators have wound a tight web of security around the evidence of these things. It is difficult to break. Douglas Peart and Peter Murdoch both claim to have no recollection of the crime scene as it relates to the body of the deceased and the physical evidence surrounding the crime. Mr. Peart was terrified during questioning and showed particular alarm that we were keen to learn about the chain of possession of Matiyek's weapon.

Kenneth Wilson has told us that he attended at the Port Hope Police Station to take a statement from Douglas Peart and David Gillispie. Wakely confirmed this.

Doug Peart has told us that he and Gillispie went to the POlice Station to give a statement.

In Gillispie's testimony under cross examination he clearly stated on several occasions that he gave a statement to Dave Kelly and Sam McReelis.

Was Gillispie referring to a meeting with Kelly at Dave Hills' home? Did Kelly drive Gillispie and Peart to the Police Station????

p.p. 1489

D.W. Gillispie - cr-ex. (Kerbel)

Q. And who was or who were the police officers that you spoke to that evening?

A. I believe it was Constable Kelly.

Q. Constable Kelly, and was he with the Port Hope Police?

A. Yes.

Q. And what about Sergent McReelis, did you speak with him?

A. Yes, I did have words with Sergent McReelis that evening, I believe.

.....

WITNESS FILE

DAVEY

AFFIDAVIT

I, Diane Davey, of the Town of Port Hope, in the County of Northumberland, married woman, make oath and say as follows:

1. That I was the person who received the telephone call from Rick Sauve in the early morning of October 19, 1978.

2. That I was never interviewed by the police at any time.

3. That Rick Sauve asked me to phone his wife, Sharon, and tell her to telephone his employer and tell him that he (Rick) would not be in for work that date.

4. That Rick Sauve also asked me to tell Sharon to phone Karen Blaker and ask her to telephone Merv Blaker's employer and tell him that Merv Blaker would not be in to work that day.

5. That as a result of this telephone call I telephoned Sharon and passed the message along.

Signed: Diane Davey

SWORN BEFORE ME at the City of Oshawa, in the Regional Municipality of Durham this 6th. day of February 1986.

Signed: Georgina Nesbitt

A Commissioner, etc.

Georgina Irene Nesbitt, a Commissioner, etc., Judicial District of Durham, for Affleck, Sosna & Shaughnessy, Barristers and Solicitors. Expires May 9, 1987.

AFFIDAVIT

I, Roger Davey, of the Town of Port Hope, in the County of Northumberland, labourer, make oath and say as follows:

1. That in the summer after Bill Matiyek was murdered, I was approached by Sgt. Sam McReelis of the Port Hope police and an unidentified O.P.P. officer.

2. That at the Port Hope Police Station I was told by Sgt. Sam McReelis that I would be charged with being an accessory after the fact unless I gave a signed statement to him regarding a telephone call made to my home by Rick Sauve in the early morning of October 19, 1978.

3. That I would never have been a witness in the Bill Matiyek murder trial save and except for the threats that I received about being charged myself.

Signed: Roger Davey

SWORN BEFORE ME at the City of Oshawa, in the Regional Municipality of Durham this 6th day of February 1986.

Signed: Georgina Nesbitt

A Commissioner, etc.

(Roger Davey lied on the stand. Roger Davey perjured himself by saying he talked to Rick Sauve when Sauve called to say he wouldn't be at work. Sauve talked to Roger's wife. Cops had phone records. They knew Rick called Davey's home. The cops threatened Roger Davey with a charge of accessory after the fact. Davey's testimony (Perjured) suggested tht Rick Sauve was calling from a victory party.)

WITNESS FILES

Doyle, Gail. Continued...

Contact with Gail Doyle - March 25, 1992

5:20 p.m. went to see Gail Doyle at 106 Augusta Rd. She lives in apartment 3, which door faces north at the driveway entrance.

- she seemed terrified

- she would not shake my hand

- she said she was about to step into "tub" and was going out tonight

- she suggested Friday afternoon for a meeting

- I suggested Monday for lunch, she said arrive at 12:00 noon and we'll see about lunch (March 30)

The person we gave message to for Gail Doyle: Gail Doyle's friend working at Dover Seafood House, February 1992.

Vehicle plate # 216 LAJ registered to Goodmakers Auto Sales Ltd., L13 C3 Hope Twp., R.R.#1 Port Hope, L1A 3V5.

Telephone call to 416-342-3167

- a man answered the phone very tentatively, I asked for Susan Foote

- he said she went into town (and confirmed that I called the right number)

- I asked when would be a good time to call her back

- he asked if she could call me

- I said I was going to be in and out most of he day, but explained why I was calling: "My name is June Rogers, I'm a freelance reporter doing a story on the Sauve/comeau case for Canadian Press. They tell me it's up for appeal. I don't know too much about it yet - I still have a lot research to do. I wanted to drop by and interview Susan."

Response: "I don't think she wants to talk abaout it. A man got killed. It's past history, dead - leave it lie, Okay?"

(Click -- hangs up phone).

MTC Name Search

- there is no Susan Foote on file that resides in Cold Springs and has an approximate year of birch in 1959-1961

- this could mean thats she is NOT a driver

- I took down particulars for:

Susan M. Foote

28 Sullivan Street

Port Hope,L1A 1S6

DL# F6515-72765-15924 - no vehicles registered

SUSAN FOOTE

Susan Marie Foote, Phikop James Foote, 28 Sullivan St. 885-9486

Don Gillespie, 80 Dorset St., Apt. 2, Port Hope

Sharon Foote on John Street 885-1892

- my Dad's cousin, Arthur Foote, R. R. #4 Cobourg, 885-8220

- cousin's daughter

- Sue is married and lives in Cold Springs

- Mrs. William Foote (SJean)

* Sue Foote married and lives in Cold Springs (416) 342-3167

- her mother is Mrs. William Foote, 372-2605, in Cobourg, first name is Jean, her husband William is deceased.

Talked to Larry on Friday at 6:50 he said that Jeff and Larry did a lot of talking to Mr. "W" to get him to come across.

Larry says he will do some work searching for other witnesses. We talked about the kinds of things we are looking for.

Larry had called the office at 2:30, 5:01 and 5:37 p.m. and left a message on the machine. I called him back.

April 17 - interviewed "Mr. W." Michael Everett--

STATEMENT OF Michael Everett

A WITNESS AT THE QUEEN'S HOTEL ON OCT. 18, 1978

11:50 AM Jeff McLeod left a message on my mobile phone saying I should call him. I called him at 757-6677 and he explained that Mr. W. would be calling me in a few minutes. I gave him my home number.

The Witness was at the Queen's Hotel on October 18, 1978.

His statement follows:

We left the club house because we got a call from Ricky or somebody I am not sure who, saying that some guy was mouthing off. Calling down the club.

Somebody was mouthing off.

When we arrived somebody said this guy was packing.

I didn't know the guy. We heard that there was more than just one of them. From the same club. Can't remember what club. Golden Hawks wasn't it? Not really important Club. In small towns these problems arise. We were to go down and talk to him. There was a meeting at our club house. Didn't work the next day. Just about everyone at the club house went along. Don't remember who talked on the phone at our end.

Nobody was aware that this guy Matiyek was carrying till we got there.

I was driven.

Went into the bar through front door. It was dark. It would have to be after 6.

The meeting was over so it must have been after ten. So maybe 11:00 by the time I got there.

Went in front door of the bar.

I was with one of the accused, Armand Sanguigni. He and I also left together.

Went up to the bar. There was an outlaw there. We were talking to him. Fred Jones. It was just general talk. We were approached by other people. We started talking to Rick and that. He or someone else pointed out the fella. Drunk. Shooting his mouth off at the time. He was putting down the club. He didn't like the club. When he saw everyone (us) there he kept his hands in his pocket. His right and his left hand were both in his pocket. I remember his left hand came out once in a while.

I was sitting at a table somewhere in the middle but away from them But still I could see the table. Rick and nutty went over to talk to BM. Someone else walked over but BM told the guy to get the fuck away from the table.

Rick and Nutty were just sitting there. They were looking at Matiyyek.

When the other guy came up. He was told to fuck off.

He left.

Then I walked up. To the table. He (Matiyek) kept his hands in his pocket. Someone had said he had a gun. I had gone to check. He told me to get away from the table.

I then started walking away. Someone else came walking up and they were going to try and restrain him. In my mind the guy was drunk, he had to be restrained and the gun had to be taken away from him. I thought to restrain the guy myself. I didn't want to do any damage to him, I just wanted to take his toy away from him. His hands were under the table. I was told he was packing.

Matiyek was yelling at me. It looked like he was still fairly controlled. Either his hand had come out of his pocket or it was out already, I didn't know because his hands were under the table. Lorne who had come along was fairly close. He might have seen. I heard a shot go off. I turned. I saw this guy go over to one side. I thought Matiyek had pulled the trigger. I looked around the other side to see who was hit. Everyone then just looked around for a second and then started running.

I went out the door right beside the guy. Nutty was just getting up. He had a sore arm or at least it looked like it. Ricky looked like he was scared shitless. He was pushing the chair backwards to get up.

I know Lorne carries a gun generally from time to time.

I did not know Bill Matiyek.

I knew Rick Sauve.

I knew Nutty.

I knew Merv Blaker.

I knew Neil Cleland.

I knew Gordie Van Harlem.

I knew Larry Hurren. He was up at the bar when we got there. He knew the people there.

Jones had said that Matiyek was drunk and that he was rambling on. I think Jones said Matiyek had a gun, but my recollection is not certain.

I could see his hand in his pocket. I think it was the right that kept still most of the time. Both of his hands were below the table. It seemed even possible he had two guns on him.

I heard him yell "get away from the table".

I left the bar, jumped in the car which was parked on the street outside the side (west) door. It was the same car I had come in. It was Armand's car. He was in the car by that time.

After we got going we started saying what the fuck happened. All we knew was that the guy was slumped over.

There were two other guys in the car with us. They were not among the accused. They were saying it was the stupidest move they had ever seen. Lorne had plugged some guy in a bar. The guys were upset at Lorne. No one knew or said anything about whether Matiyek had gone for a gun. We just hadn't seen.

Lorne Campbell.

He had seemed calm when we got to the bar. I had seen Lorne. I remember going by him. Lorne seemed placid.

I think Larry Hurren got a drink.

I heard something along the lines that the management wanted the Choice out.

When we had first come in, Armand and I were standing together with Freddie Jones in the Pinball room. Then Fred and Armand went over where the pinballs were and they were talking over there.

I went and sat down at one table. There were three of us but I can't remember who. I remember Lorne was near us. He was a table or two away from the bar.

As I recall we were a table or two away from this Matiyek guy.

We were in the middle of the room.

I heard of one of the witnesses being paid $5k. After the hullabaloo was over she squealed saying that she was rehearsed her.

My back was to Lorne so I don't remember seeing too much.

I saw his hands in his pocket.

Jones was standing with Armand in the pin ball room.

The person who went to the table before me was told to fuck off. But I can't remember who that was. I think it was a thin person, not too tall. I lean toward thinking it was a friend of Matieyk. The guy had black hair and a beard. I remember him being kind of bushy or whatever.

He was told to get away from the table. He said "OK OK" and walked away.

I don't remember a girl being around the table.

There were people sitting close to this guy Matiyek.

Nutty was sitting to Matiyek's right. It was sort of a triangle set-up. Nutty was sitting to Matiyek's right. Rick was looking across the table almost opposite Matiyek.

The only thing I know about Lorne is that he said the guy went for the gun.

Whoever was with Lorne might have seen the gun. My back was to most of it.

My back was to Lorne. I was just turning away from Matiyek. I was trying to see Matiyek's hands but they were under the table. It was like a hostage situation. I had hoped we could talk him out of it and figure out what his beef was.

I followed the trial through feedback from the club. My lawyer had told me not to come forward and tell anyone that I was t the bar that night. My Lawyer told me not to come forward as a witness.

There was one witness who identified me. They needed two.

The witness will call himself "John" for the meantime. He will contact our office and set a time.

The witness has a criminal record. Some assault, some drugs, no skin beefs.

He is not a member of the SCMC but was at the material time. He lives in the city. He is going away for the long weekend. FILE OFF at 2:29 AM

April 18 - filmed McReelis' home, etc.

April 18 - 7:30 p.m. - Port Hope

- Dave Kelly's home, 18 Hillcrest. Truck RY2-159, Red Corsica OCF-729

- set up observation on Kelly's home from Saint Anthony's school

- observed tall, thin, grey haired gent go to Red Corsica then back to his house.

- tomorrow night Ron Lessier is coming to help him go over the list of guys who were at the clubhouse on Oct. 18, l978.

- Merv went to Terry's and gave him $l000.00

- Gary Comeau talked to Terry O'Hara

- Susan Smith is 5'5" and is big-busted and she runs a beauty parlour

- Bruce Martin was a friend of Susan Smith since the time of the shooting of Matiyek. Neither of the two have ever discussed the Oct. 18, 1978 shooting.

Re: Susan Smith

- his buddy says that she is married

- approx. 40 years old

- owns beauty salon located on George St. in Peterborough

- he will have her address and phone number by Monday

- a year ago she didn't want to cooperate

- his buddy says she gave an indication that whe was in the hotel; and that BM was in the hotel also

"Mike said something to me yesterday about the gun being in Bill's «MDBU»right hand."

- in '79 or '80, he says he talked to Rick about which hand of Matiyek's the gun was in

- both were stubborn -- "Are you sure it wasn't in his «MDBU»right hand?" Gary asked Rick. Rick; "It was in his left, It was f..... pointed right at me."

- Bill's family -- right-handed, as far as Gary knows, Bill was right-handed as well.

- Gary remembers that Bill shook his «MDBU»left hand at him; that's when he saw part of the gun under Bill's coat

- then Gary sat down and Bill said "I've got nine friends here too." -- bullets? -- 8 in one gun, 1 in Derringer -- two guns? -- one in each of Bill's hands?

Anglican affiliated, private school, Grades 8 - OAC, as of this year is co-ed, before a boys school, 90% of students board, 10% daily. info. being sent.

- Campbell's gun did not come from Toronto -- it came out of Sauve's barn

- it might have been Gordie's gun

- Campbell met Sauve at Sauve's house

- Sauve told Campbell that Matiyek had a gun

- Campbell stepped forward from the others at Sauve's house -- others said "not me"

- the shells in the gun were reloads

- Bill Lavoie reloaded the shells himself - they were 9 mm and the loads were inconsistant

- there would have been 10 to 12 people at Sauve's house

- Michael Everett was there - he is Mr. "X"

- the 10 to 12 people at Rick's house began to discuss the thing

- Jeff McLeod was in a car with six people

- "Carl" Heinz was the driver -- he had been in the club at the time only 6 months. Carl's brother Ralph joined the club after the (?)

(- "Duster" (Dave Kemp) was one of the baby sitters

(- "Dave" at Rick Sauve's place

(- Billy Patreiff (had drink) - Pine Hills Cemetery, Kennedy & St. Clair - Billy was a striker and a baby sitter

- Larry Hurren -- talks

- Dwayne Wemp is Sonny Bronson's brother he is Pres. of Ottawa Outlaws

- the guy mistaken for Hoffman is Daven "Beachball"

- Ron Lessier wasn't there

- Randy Gobo was Beaver's partner, Randy was not at the Queen's

- Randy Gobo was not there

Monday, May 11 - 9:45 a.m. - Gary Comeau phoned collect

- Gary has trailer visit for 3 days

- Merv Blaker and Jeff McLeod talked to Terry O'Hara, all think it is a good idea that Terry takes on whole case

- if he needs an assistant John Hills would act.

Monday, May 11 Merv Blaker, Fermel, Ontario

5:30 p.m. - visited Merv Blaker for 1 hour and half interview.

- he confirmed that (1) Mike Everett was there at Port Hope bar (2) that "Torty" was there

- he does not remember details about people congregating at Rick's place, but thinks the general consensus is that Matiyek might get a beating at the most.

- he is still having trouble with CSC

- he has engaged Terry O'Hara. We are to brief Terry O'Hara. We are to work with Terry O'Hara

- John Hill is still involved

- Gary will send us a letter of instructions.

July 9, 1992 - O'Hara and Sauve - 10:30 a.m.

O'Hara/Broadbent - Terry O'Hara wants 690 appeal papers

- get Jeff a full case book, graphs, pics., etc.

- Fred Jones in P.Q., willing to talk

- Everett and Sanguigni were always together

- Rick has seen McReelis lately

- Rick says look out for McReelis - he is capable of murder

- Rick was at a function where McReelis was in attendance - OPP showed up, no scene

- Rick does not remember anything regarding the weapon Campbell used

13:20 - arrived Security at Warkworth

- Oct. 18, 1978, the reason he did not say he was at Rick's place was to avoid questions about who was who at Rick's

- when we left the clubhouse no one was armed

- when we arrived at Rick's house we learned that Matiyek was armed, there were only two people there

- we were at Rick's house for only a short while when we were told Matiyek was armed

- we said, whoa -- who is to say the Outlaws aren't armed as well

- we are not going unless somebody is armed

- a person other than the new arrivals produced a gun

- once we decided we're not going there unless we had an item, the guy who had the item didn't want to bring it himself

- the person with the item held it out - everybody looked around

- we wanted to be sure that no one was going to do something stupid

- finally Campbell said I'll take it

- somebody said OK, but this does not get pulled unless the other guys pull their gun

- Jeff, Beaver, Comeau said the above, others concurred

- there was a consensus that Campbell was trusted

- the instructions to Campbell were -- if you see someone pull a gun, then pull ours

- at first no one wanted to take the weapon

- we were all in a circle -- 13 people including the strikers

- once Campbell took it most people voiced approval and confirmed the caveats

- "make sure this fucking thing doesn't get pulled unless they pull theirs"

- Jeff and Beaver spoke out -- "fucking right"

- when we got there, the fucker was drunk out of his mind

- we weren't in that house much more than 5 minutes

Question to Gary:- Was Torty at Rick's place? Gary avoided question.

- Mr. W. would be a guy to say what the rules are

- Jeff has talked to all the other guys

- get Terry O'Hara to write a letter to Jeff McLeod

- I would say there are three or four who were there that night who didn't get arrested

- Bernie Guindon met Howard and John Hill, the name of the cop who quit

- Susan Smith -- A Susan Smith turned up in the papers, she played ball for "Ganny" Hotel in Port Hope

- Sue Foote's daughter (she has two kids) they are turning

- there is a guard at Warkworth who is buddy-buddy with Sue Foote

- the guy who was a buddy to Gary on the CSC staff, Rick Hudson was always doing his best to help, he worked at Maintenance Garage

- Rick Hudson said Bruce Martin is an important witness

- Gary was talking to Wally Hay from Kitchener

- Kerbel had told Gary don't take the stand or you'll get nailed for Contempt for not naming other guys

- Ron Lousier was a guy at the Clubhouse who said, fuck it I am going home

- Ron Lousier may have been at the club at time of phone calls

- mention to Jeff that we want the names of 3 guys who where at the clubhouse but didn't go to Port Hope

- Ron Lousier was SCMC at the time

Q. What were you doing before you were at Clubhouse?

A. I was at my mother's, I cooked spaghetti for my family. I was at the house all day.

- I rode a Harley '75 decker

- I sold it from Millhaven

Guys in SCMC:

- it had no moles

- MacElroy is still in club

- Bob Fuller "Boots" - straight

- Bob Preston

- Larry Simmons - old guy out 15 years ago

15:04 - left Interview Room.

Bernie Guindon, Oshawa, 416-579-3902

- called Bernie at 16:10, meeting arranged for 6:45, 208 Bloor West - get off at Ritson Rd., West on Bloor.

July 17, 1992

16:45 - drove through Port Hope, observed 46 Caroline, has Coldwell Bankers SOLD sign.

16:51 - drove past 15 Trafalgar, no activity, no cars in drive, garage doors closed, grounds well kept

16:57 - set up observation on Kathy Eastman's residence - sign in window says APTS FOR RENT 885-0043

17:16 - 501 LHP Park Avenue is parked in back - front right corner damaged -- VH0 788 Hyundi is also parked in back, motorcycle 555NE also in back

- * Tom Holdaway 613-373-9387, Picton

- former PHPD, doesn't like Sam McReelis, quit force because he saw and didn't like what was happening

- Holdaway had married into a family of Const.

- Holdaway married Brock's sister

- Brock Snyder, lives in Bewdley

- 3 REBEL (Reddish Van) vehicle watching Guindon's home

- White Chrysler pulled over Bernie's daughter (25), chased her to Whitby, 2 men were aboard the vehicle - 338 CWB

- Tom Holdaway is an unstable person but is also a Rebel

- Brock Snyder's wife Darlene's sister married Holdaway

- McReelis and Hall had Babcocks's...

- Bernie was talking to the Outlaws, Lawrence Leon was at the bar last night

- he has moved to Mississauga, he was working off a bar bill at Countrey's

- * Ron Fertile was a Road Captain at SCMC

- Ron owns cheque cashing place at Wentworth and Oxford on SE side

- Larry Hurren got nailed for working around Clubhouse

- Larry Hurren has moved near Farrell Avenue, bought house off Dick Polecock

- Gary Fertile is in Toronto, married Kerry Dafoe -- Trish

- 301 Wentworth St.W. - Cash 'n Dash - Ron Fertile runs the place

- Richard Williams "Duke" Outlaws Pres. is seeking a meet with Bernie

- * Larry Hurren, new home at 699 Wesley, near Holiday Inn - Grandview S. off Bloor, turn left down Wesley

- * Dick Pocock 579-5321

- Ollie Nelson is looking after Skinny Nelson's case - Phase III is Ollie's business

- went with Bernie to Donut met Dick Pocock who provided Larry's address, observed Dick's phone # on keys

11:59 p.m. - drove Bernie back to his home at 208 Bloor St. W. and cleared out.

Went by Becker's, closed at 11:00

12:15 a.m. July 18, drove to Wesley Drive - 136 CPY is parked in driveway at Larry Hurren's home

12:26 - cleared Oshawa - phoned Bell for Larry Hurren's # - unpublished.

- met at Larry's home in Oshawa and went to Holiday Inn

- Larry knows of someone named "Smiley" who was at the Hotel on Oct. 18,1979

- Larry will contact his sources and obtain his real name

- Smiley has sent a message to Larry saying; Rick Galbraith was a buddy, I rode with him

- I relaxed, I had thought there would be a beef

- I got change for cigarettes, I had a couple of beers

- the second beer was smashed when I heard the gun shots. I was shocked I threw the beer down and left the hotel

- I saw Matiyek come to the phone

- I watched him walk up, he said "Hi Larry", he looked pretty scared

- I felt sorry for him because I thought he might get a beating

- I heard he was shooting his mouth off

- when I arrived I saw there were a lot of our guys so I felt comfortable

- I was welcome there because I never caused any trouble

- Kathy Cotgrave was best friends with my girl-friend Beverley Maher

- Beverley Maher's parents are still in Port Hope, she is in Oshawa

- I saw Cotgrave at the bar

- I dont remember seeing Helen Mitchell

- Helen came to see me at the Port Hope bucket

- Rick Galbraith was there, he was talking to me and to the owner

- I came from the Toronto Clubhouse with Lorne Campbell

- when at Rick's place there was alot of talk - people were asking questions

- there were a handful of people there at Rick's already

- at Rick's place it was getting out of hand

- a couple had too much to drink

- I thought it was Outlaws there, I expected to see 30 Outlaws in the place

- some people were saying let's check out

- we're here now let's go

- no one wanted to grab the item

- I got pissed off, I said something about Gary taking the gun

- Gary was too Gung Ho

- I didn't want Gary to have the gun

- Comeau had talked everybody into going in the first place

- I really didn't want Gary having the gun

- I got really mad at Gary

- Torty may have said something about it

- finally Lorne just grabbed the gun

- can't recall the specific words of instruction

- no one had a gun

- there was no way I would

- Hoffman had asked Larry what he thought about the wires and his appeal

- Larry disagreed with copping a plea, he felt that by copping a plea ...

- when Rick and Gary were sentenced Larry, Dave, Jeff and Merv were waiting for sentencing

- one day guards came to Larry and said your lawyer is here - it was Terry Hall

- Terry Hall said if you tell us what really happened I'll guarantee you the minimum

- Rick Galbraith didn't go either way

- Rick served Larry some beer

- the foreman of the jury was running the show

Cleared Holiday Inn at 12:45 and drove Larry home.

Aurora at 1:35 a.m. July 22.

NB>

- learned from Larry Hurren that Charmaine Campbell has cancer and is now living in Belleville

- learned that Larry Hurren travelled from Toronto Clubhouse with Lorne Campbell

- Larry confirmed that Torty was at Rick's

- Larry sees Torty as being a level headed individual

- Larry vehemently opposed Comeau being given the gun and averted that from happening by protesting and getting agreement from peers

- Campbell was given the gun by default

- Terry Hall offered Larry after the conviction, "tell me what really happened and I'll get you the lightest sentence"

- people were afraid of Sanguigni

- Sanguigni controlled the show and convinced everyone that they should not take the stand

- Metro 16 yrs., OPP 10 yrs., Port Hope for 7-8 years

- Sam and I threatened each other

- cut Sam's tie off

- Earl Johns and Dave Kelly seemed to be buddies of Sam

- Sam was a gung-ho kind of guy

- Sam's case work was good

- Sam didn't trust the older fellows, he told Tom that no OPP Hotshot is going to tell me what to do

- Sam McReelis kept us all out of the investigation into the B.M. murder

- Doug Shortreed and Rick Newman-Jones

- Shorty and I went through the same stuff

- Doug was my best man at my 2nd. marriage

- we thought we were in heaven, there was no pressure

- heard stories of Sam bashing heads

- Ken Wilson and Gary Woods may have been involved at the outset

- Dave Kelly ws Sam's gopher on the B.M. case, I think

- Ken Wilson and McReelis ran hot and cold

- never called road blocks for bank robberies

Tom Holdaway is very nervous about speaking for the record, not being sure how it will involve him.

- Rick Newman-Jones came to Picton with Barb's sister Doris

- Sam's father-in-law committed suicide

- Sam took his father's death pretty hard

- Sam has had trouble with one of his kids, his oldest one

- Tom did Security at preliminary

- Tom remembers that Metro Matiyek had gone and got the effects of B.M. -- the contents of his pockets and was very upset

- Dave Hills was a big guy who kind of controlled things at the bar, he may have been in trouble for thumping people now and again

- Rick Galbraith was a jerk, he may have been striking for the Choice

- the whole investigation was bush business

- I recall asking McReelis if he needed help and he responded saying, I need nothing from Tom and Tom need not ask any questions

- stabbing case to the station one day with an SCMC jacket on - no sleeves

- Sam was very materialistic

- Sam may have had paid informants

- the Police report, I read it after the whole thing was over

- there wasn't much in it

- Sam had a shotgun prepared with pistol grip

Clear at 8:34

Stan - President, Oshawa Club

Mitchell, Helen - stripper

Boyd, Dwight "Diesel", Peterborough

Price, Rick - plumbing store in Oshawa

Smythe, Debbie, and"Star", and "Robin"- Tanglewood Hotel

Morrison, Barry (Larry) - Tangelwood Hotel

Babcocks, Brian, Port Hope 885-1609, wife Faith Doyle

Babcocks, Mrs. (Brian's mother), Cobourg 372-9733

Doyle, Gail, Babcocks mother-in-law

Powell, Julie (Joncas), Port Hope

Stewart, Rod, Construction Co., Port Hope

Brown, Sharon, witness

Nastuk, Cheryl, witness

Peart, Douglas, witness

Sunmore, Jack, witness

Murdoch, Peter, witness, South.Ont. Newspaper Guild 461-2461

LaBrash, Peter, witness

Fox, Gary, witness

Fair, Cathy, witness

Castinette, James, witness

Meretsky, Jerry, witness

Harrison, Gord, film maker, Ottawa 613-521-5510

Clapperton, Carol - friend of Merv Blaker

Galbraith, Rick, bartender

Galbraith, Gary, Rick G.'s brother

Hanna, Jamie, sitting with Matiyek

Roger, friend of Terry Hall

Clelland, Neil, Richmond Hill club - bail money from Merv Blaker

Crosby, former police chief Belleville, Parole board for M.Blaker

Blaker, Elisa May - Merv Blaker's daughter (19)

Leon, Lawrence, witness at trial

Horner, Tommy, in Joyceville at time

Jones, Fred, friend of Neil Clelland, now in P.q.

Bronson, Sonny, friend of Neil Clelland

Mr. W. - statement on file

Shortreed, Douglas, Dave Kelly's partner

Eastman, Kathy, 97 Mill St. - rents from D.Shortreed

Moorehouse (Moorecroft?) - Police Commissioner, Port Hope

Doyle, Gail, 106 Agusta, Apt. 3, Port Hope, no phone

Beamer, Helen, 43 Thorncroft Cres., L1S 2S1

Glaister, Bill

Wakely, Bill 885-5193, PHPD

Yardey, Tom, PHPD, friend of T. O'Hara

Shane 235-9216, copper at Country Nugget

Larry 379-7417, partner of Jeff McLeod, former SCMC

Paul, partner with Jeff McLeod

Hills, Dave, bartender

Gillispie, Dave, bartender

Cotgrave, Kathy, witness, worked at Ganaraska

Mathews, Murry, at hotel day after event

Foster, Peggy, newspaper column

Avisson, Don, Ottawa, 613-957-8307

Neilson, Finn, Centre for Forensic Sciences, 314-3232

McReelis, Barbara, 15 Trafalgar St. Port Hope L1A 2Z6

Smith, Susan, witness, beauty parlour, Peterborough

Racicot, sat with Susan Smith

Old man seen by Merv Blaker - someone other than Cap

Denbar, Bill, Merv Blaker's parole officer

Goodwin, Bill, used to go out with Susan Jones

Blaker, Karen, Port Hope

"Bimma", Outlaw biker

Lavoie, Bill, biker

Wilson, Ken PHPD, with MacDonald 1st on scene

Green, Ed., supplying dispatcher PH

Caplan, Neil (Kaplan), gave "25" to Matiyek

Hoath, PHPD Chief at time of event

Devine, Murray - 4th platoon PHPD

Johns, Earl, PHPD

King (White), Nancy, Board of Trade PH

Kelly, Dave, PHPD, friend of Sam McReelis

Spencer, Paul, dispatcher PHPD, lives in Bowmanville

Wilson, Ms. Eleanor 885-2925, nurse

Green, Mrs., nurse

Elliot, Shirley (previously Hall), nurse

Hall, Larry, (1st husband of above)

Woods, Gary, "Woody" organized drug raid, friend of Terry Hall

Austin, Tim, Cobourg - Ambulance Service 372-2081

Moore, PHPD, went to hospital with Wakely, found gun on Matiyek

Bowden, Mrs., night nurse at hospital on duty

Matiyek, Metro, father of Bill

Keiser, Jim, OPP investigated school break in

Sauve, Blackie, wife Bonnie, own roofing business

Colins, Mayor of PH

Chalmers, former mayor of PH

Everett, friend of Sanguigni

Guindon, Bernie, Oshawa 416-579-3902

Hudson, Rick, CSC staff Maintenance Garage

Martin, Bruce, witness (as per above contact)

Hay, Wally, Kitchener

Lousier, Ron Toronto SCMC clubhouse at time of phone calls

MacElroy, SCMC

Buller, Bob "Boots, SCMC

Preston, Bob, SCMC

Simmons, Larry, out 15 years ago

Holdaway, Tom, 613-373-9387, Picton, former PHPD

Snyder, Brock, Bewdley

Fertile, Ron, Road Captain SCMC, 301 Wentworth St. W.

Pockoch, Dick, 579-5321

Williams, Richard "Duke" Outlaw Pres.

Fertile, Gary, Toronto

Nelson, Ollie

Nelson, Skinny, Phase III

"Smiley" at hotel Oct. 18/79, Larry Hurren will get full name

Maher, Beverley, girl-friend of Larry Hurren, Oshawa

Campbell, Charmain, Belleville

Torty

Newman-Jones, Rick, PHPD

Beaulne, Dan, Bank of Montreal, Cobourg, lives in Oakville

Debbie, B.ofM., teller

Painter, Mike

Sunday, Debbie, waitress at Walton Rest.

McIntosh, Janet and Dean

McKewen, Garnet "Mother"

Sedgewick, Catherine, editor of PH Evening Guide 885-2471

Milne, Dave, Police Assoc. story

- Campbell got no instructions

- Nutty was drunk

- McLeod would have been happy to baby-sit Rick's kids and not go to the bar

- Larry Valentine and Jeff were recently...

- Fig looked like Gary and may have been mistaken

- Michael Everett has moved out of the city

- Larry will know where Michael is

- Fig was there

- Torty was there

- Hall (Terry) had grabbed Jeff during the trial just prior to sentencing and asked Jeff to say what really happened

- the group was afraid that Nutty and Rick were in danger because of the proximity to the deceased

- Lorne Campbell is out regularly

- Charmaine's cancer is terminal, she is only 35 - timing, November

- Lorne Campbell reads the air very well, he is very competent at sensing what is going on

- strong street sense, he would have read the body language at Matiyek's table

- one time in conversation Campbell just sensed it and said to Jeff - I know you hate my guts, Campbell sensed it even though Jeff didn't let on

- Michael had said to Jeff and Beaver that Matiyek had a gun

- Jeff was going to walk over to Matiyek and say - OK, cool - every one is beautiful

- Jeff wanted to pull out - to leave

- Campbell had a toque pulled over his face

- Port Hope was known as Hooterville, Pixley

- Lorne had the toque pulled over his head and was out the door leaving everyone with their faces hanging out

- Enright(?) had walked up to Beaver and Jeff and said Matiyel had a gun on Rick

- Lorne used to get into the pills in a serious way, he'd be out of it for a long time

- Larry Hurren got his money for his house from his mother

Q.: Is the house in Larry Hurren's name?

Q.: Did his mother buy him the motorcycle?

- Jeff pulled Larry out of some big jam

- must question Indian on meeting at Sonne's house

August 21 -- Met with Jeff Broadbent at our offices. He is anxious to have a copy of the Rolidex file on Witnesses. Told him not yet. Gave him briefing on synopsis of events leading to the death of Bill Matiyek.

1/ Cathy Cotgrave's testimony was rehearsed and she was paid $10,000.

2/ Roger Davie's testimony was rehearsed, cohersed, and perjured.

3/ Bill Wakely admits that Matiyek's gun disappeared for a time.

11 Prince Arthur Avenue, Toronto, Ontario M5R 1B2 - Telephone (416) 964-9664

Mr. Michael O'Brien

Unlimited Investigations

15221 Yonge Street

Suite 203

Aurora, Ontario

L4G 1L8

Dear Mr. O'Brien:

Re: Lorne CAMPBELL

I have recently received written instructions from Mr. Campbell and, accordingly, these instructions preclude any correspondence I have had with you.

Yours very truly,

Clayton C. Ruby

/lk

cc: Mr. Lorne Campbell, P.O. Box 1500, Bath, Ontario, K0H 1G0

August 24, 1992 -- Gary Comeau called to say that Mr. X received documents from the justice department in the form of a written confession. Campbell is expected to sign this thing.

August 14, 1992, Friday

- went to Peterborough and stayed at Otonobee Inn

- established rapport with local bikers Don Graham and "Randy"

- learned that a certain Susan Smith had moved to Vancouver, she is 40ish, married to a guy named AVIS and was a hard user

- Don is a Peterborough Cop

- Don read Lowe's book and says he is ashamed to come from Port Hope

- he was born in P.H. and lived there for 2 years

- he has been on Peterborough forces for 20 years

- he knows Van Haarlem

- he knows Fred Jones

- says Jones is in prison

- says Jones was in station lately reporting on a day pass

- says PC at Peterborough would know where

- Don is sympathetic to C/S case

- Don lives at 583 Park St. North at Bonaccord, his phone # is 1-705-742-7368l

- contacted Correction Services Canada in Peterborough

- Bill Dunbar is Fred Jones Parole Officer

- I called Bill on August 24, 1992 at 2:55 p.m.

- he will immediately give Fred my number

- he agreed to take my phone number over to Fred Jones who is living nearby

- Bill Dunbar hates Sam McReelis

- 705-742-8889, 705-742-8404

10:20 - Jeff Broadbent arrived at office. Reviewed case and took trial transcript. Jeff and I and Larry met during afternoon. Pointed out to him there is much more work to do. Broadbent left about 5:12 p.m. taking trial transcripts and first 150-odd pages of Comeau file.

Comeau called to say Broadbent is unhappy with investigation and is concerned about Cotgrave's father's house. I told Comeau I was puzzled. Comeau also says that Campell has received some form of confession, he is supposed to sign. He says Campbell will not do so. This typed confession is allegedly from Justice.

August 24 -- left message for Broadbent to call me.

August 25 - 7:22 - Contacted Betty King.

- 2 grandchildren and Betty went for trailer visit recently

- Committee is quiet, still getting a few letters

- Cottages(?) 416-985-4536

- R.P. Conway Drive 893-7720

Contacted Carol - she doesn't know Ron Lesier's number

TAPED TELEPHONE CALL TO GAYLE THOMPSON.

A.: Hello

Q.: Gayle Thompson please

A.: Speaking

Q.: Gayle, my name is Michael O'Brien, I'm calling from Toronto Ontario and I'm an Investigator and I'm working on a matter relating to a judicial review for a couple of prison inmates who are involved in a case at which you were a witness, you know what I'm referring to, I can tell by the tone of your voice, ha,ha, have you ever had calls like this before.

A.: Well not from an investigator, your an investigator with who?

Q.: Well, we're a Private Investigation firm in the City of Toronto

A.: And who are you doing this investigation for?

Q.: We're doing this investigation for a group of lawyers who are putting forward; first of all I should explain what a judicial review is:- A life- sentence is a life-sentence, period, for a persons entire life, but in 1976 when the 25 year minimum term life-sentence, in other words 25 years without parole was passed, they also passed a law that said that well, in the event that parliament is asked to hear this thing at a judicial review, they would review it at 15 years, which time is coming up in the sentences and they want to hear the specifics of the case and they want to hear about Correction Services Canada's opinion of the accused's behaviour and so-on and so-forth. I guess you know one of them is just about finished his Masters Degree.

A.: Oh yea, yes I'm kept informed.

Q.: That's an amazing thing isn't it

A.: What, that I'm kept informed?

Q.: No, no that he's actually concluded a Masters Degree

A.: Oh, um, well, is it really that amazing, what else is he going to do with all that time.

Q.: Yea, I suppose so.

A.: They've got a choice, they can improve themselves or, the same as we can on the outside, we can ...

Q.: Well, there is 13,500 people in the prison system in Canada and this is the only one, there are lots if them serving life-sentences, that's why I said, that's all. Well I have a couple of questions for you..

A.: OK, so your investigating for a group of lawyers who are reviewing this case, so are you investigating for the crown or are you investigating for the accused?

Q.: Definitely for the accused, and the product of this will go before probably a committee of parliament. I'm not too sure what the venue is actually and so I am trying to just help you with that to understand that, but in actual fact...

A.: Am I likely to get a call from the other side as it were, the crown side?

Q.: I don't think so, what I'm calling you about is just some background because something else has come up as we've done the investigation and I only have a couple of questions for you and I was just going to suggest that if you have any difficulty with that I would be more than happy to write you with credentials or have someone, we have someone in Victoria who could come and see you, but rather than go to that expense without hearing what we're looking for,I just thought I would tell you and if you have any difficulty answering those questions we can do whichever you like.

A.: OK, what sort of case are you talking about and how can I possibly help with something ...... involving these two people, is that what your saying?

Q.: No, no, its actually not relating to another case per se, its just some other things have come up, and you know there's been an appeal, this didn't have anything to do with us, but there is an appeal and the justice department sent out investigators, who we've talked to, you.. anyway let me just throw a couple of questions at you and see how you feel about that. Going back over the trial transcripts and going back over the interviews with the various lawyers who were involved at the time, one of them is deceased actually, there was a discrepancy between your testimony at the trial and the statement that you gave police -- you can imagine what fun it is going through those old records buried deep in the basement of Port Hope, the papers were actually yellow, but they had to do with a couple of things and the only question I had for you really was -- were you coached or assisted in any way, did police approach you in any way prior to your taking the stand?

A.: No, not other than my giving my statements, no.

Q.: OK, so you didn't see, who did you give your statement to?

A.: Originally, I don't remember who I gave my statement to, I really don't remember, Oh my goodness, the police that were directly involved that I remember were Sam McReelis, Gary Woods, Murray ..um

Q.: Murray Devine would it be?

A.: Yes, Murray Devine, I honest to God do not remember.

Q.: Would it have been Murray Devine?

A.: It could have been one of them, it was a pretty wild and crazy time, there were all kinds of questions, there were all kinds of police, there were police that I didn't even know were police..

Q.: Really?

A.: Well, I mean no,no, don't take ...ha, ha, no, no, your going off on the wrong track, no what I meant was like Don Denis and Terry Hall, is what I meant and they had been in the hotel on occasion and we didn't know, at least I didn't know anyway that they were police until this whole thing had happened.

Q.: I see, so they were in the hotel say after the time of the murder?

A.: Well they had photographs, they did photographs, they also testified, but what I meant by what I said was just the fact that they looked and appeared to in anytime that I had seen them before the murder, you know, I didn't know they were police, I thought they were just bikers, just guys.... their job...that's why they looked like they did; but I honestly can't tell you who took my statement, who sat across the table from me that first time, I can't tell you I do not remember. I can remember the actual incident like it happened yesterday..

Q.: Is that right..

A.: I don't remember all the kurfufful afterward, it was very, well it wasn't very pleasant, it wasn't a very nice way to have to live for quite a while.

Q.: After the thing happened you went to washroom, something like that..

A.: Yes

Q.: When you came out did you see Doug Peart around

A.: No............

Q.: Is it possible that this chap Matiyek had bought a load drugs from one of the other fellows before then, like pills or something like that?

A.: Is it possible?

Q.: From anything that you saw or heard

A.: I had no indication that any drugs were involved

Q.: OK, but you just didn't see anything that ...

A.: I didn't see anything, the only thing that is very vivid about that was the incident with Brian Brideau, and as far as I know there was no exchange of drugs or anything to do with that, that was something that he actually instigated and it went from there.

Q.: You mean Brian Brideau and Matiyek?

A.: Yea, and Fred, but like I say I never saw any drugs at the table or exchanging of drugs, or heard of a deal going down.

Q.: Was Dave Hills at the bar at the time?

A.: No, Rick Gailbraith was at the bar

Q.: Dave Hills wasn't around eh?

A.: (can not hear this answer)

Q.: How did he have a conflict?

A.: Started ... drugs with Choice

Q.: Oh, I see, that's interesting eh. Were they, um, were these bad people?

A.: Bad people! ha, ha,

Q.: Yea, these guys from the Choice?

A.: Now your on their side, right, do you think they deserve to be back on the street now? Where are you coming from on this?

Q.: Actually, I've got to tell you we're pretty neutral, we do a lot of big cases like this, its just another one that's come in the door. I don't know them from Adam you know.

A.: See its so different from me, it's very hard to understand, but I do understand being totally neutral, other than reading, as you say those musty old papers.

Q.: Yea, well its just the kind of thing that we do, we do a lot of murder investigations, we do a lot of that kind of thing and I guess you just become..

A.: How did you find me? Just out of curiosity, not that its a big secret anymore.

Q.: Um, no we didn't have any difficulty finding you, we just used our computers per se. You were identified for the public record at the trial and there are sufficient things there, but you know as far as that's concerned your..

A.: No, I'm just curious, because years ago an author, what's his name, the man who wrote Conspiracy of Brothers, Mick Lowe? -- out of the blue he found me and I thought I had escaped or something I don't know, it was kind of shocking you know, when I asked him how he found me he told me the information was coming through my ex- .

Q.: Oh I see, that wouldn't have been Randy Koeler would it?

A.: Yes, it would have been Randy Koeler

Q.: It would have

A.: Yes

Q.: Oh I see; so you did eventually marry Randy Koeler

A.: No I did not

Q.: So when you say ex- you mean ex-boyfriend

A.: Yes, he was current at the time

Q.: Oh I see, well that makes sense.

A.: Have you questioned all of these people?

Q.: A lot of them. I'm just making some notes Gayle ... so you were not approached by police, you actually reported yourself to the police did you, as being a person knowing something of this?

A.: Yes, well I mean I was there and everyone that was there that night was questioned.

Q.: So you were questioned.. and you did not give a statement at the preliminary hearing right?

A.: I didn't testify then.

Q.: Right, why was that do you know?

A.: I would say they didn't ask me, I was there, I was ready, I was ready to testify, I didn't get called at the time. There were others that weren't called too, so I assumed that the preliminary hearing was to establish whether or not there was enough evidence to go to trial and when they had enough evidence then they no longer needed the rest of us ...so

Q.: Yea. Did Bill commonally have a gun on him?

A.: Well, I mean it wasn't something he flashed around or anything and I certainly didn't see it, but, with all the trouble that he had had, I assumed that he did from what I heard, but like you know he didn't let you know every day that he was packing or anything like that, but I guess if I go back to where I was then, I guess I probably just assumed that he did, at the time....an awful lot of people in those days that I wasn't totally aware of that were packing a gun.

Q.: Yea, did Bill have a gun in his boots?

A.: I don't know

Q.: I see, but you were aware that there had been a shooting involving him having a gun?

A.: Yea, there was this thing where his truck, I can't remember all the details for you, but there was this thing where his truck had been destroyed, not externally so much but they had taken his tape deck or smashed it inside, stuff like this and he got a hold of someone that he thought had something to do with that and fired a gun in the air, not right at them but fired a gun in the air. I don't know how long before the murder that was, I can't tell you but there were lots and lots of incidents that went down, not just with his gun but fights and confrontations, constantly, it was a weekly process. Not just Bill but Bill and others from other biker groups and sometimes just guys, like sometimes it would be Randy, you know, or other guys that just hung out but weren't from biker groups, so they just had too much to drink.

Q.: Randy and Bill would fight would they?

A.: Pardon, no Randy and Bill were good friends, no I'm talking about the Choice and you know,... could you hold for just a minute....

Q.: Sure

A.: Sorry. Yea you know like I say pretty well every week or so there would always be happenings in that hotel and since the Choice, this is prior to them being um, I don't know the proper saying but it had been laid down and gone through the police and Leo had some registered document, the police had some registered document that they were no longer allowed to come to that hotel and if they did they would be charged with trespassing. Because of all the incidents and it always involved, maybe I shouldn't say always but it usually involved them, some of them, a couple of them were quite rowdy.

Q.: Who were the rowdy ones?

A.: ....Horner...... He was just inhuman, he had to be taken in control by other members of the group because he was even embarrassing to his own group, that's how bad that man was.

Q.: Good lord!

A.: Yea, on a couple of occasions they had to take him in hand. One night he had me by the bar and threatening to carry me off if I didn't turn the music up and actually Merv Blaker saved my bacon.

Q.: Really, what kind of fella is he, is he a ratty one too, Blaker?

A.: Merv, no, he's a good guy, maybe in his younger days but certainly not in my history at the Queen's Hotel, he wasn't one of the rowdy ones. He was in there occasionally and had a few beers, he would never be an instigator, I don't ever remember Merv being in a fight, you know, other than like I say when it came to something like that and thank God he was there that night because he saved my biscuit because otherwise for sure I probably would have been carried out, and that was to do with Tom Horner and those kind of incidents would happen all the time, they would have to take him in control....but Merv he was no trouble.

Q.: Who Blaker wasn't

A.: No, Blaker was there

Q.: Was he involved in the murder?

A.: He was there, so he was involved in the murder.

Q.: Well, there were a lot of people there who were not involved in the murder.

A.: Well, any of them that were Satan's Choice as far as I'm concerned were involved in the murder. I don't know that they came into the hotel that night realizing that that was going to go down, I don't think probably that that was the case, but...

Q.: So you don't think there was any pre-planning?

A.: Um, I really don't know, I don't think that they meant to kill him, I think they meant to teach him a lesson, I don't think that if they meant to kill him that they would have staged it in such a manner, they're too sleazy for that, they weren't up front enough to confront someone face to face, they would wait until you walked out to your truck and beat the shit out of you...and leave you laying there.

Q.: Is that right?

A.: They weren't you know, like I said, you know for that many of them to come in and kind of flaunt in everybody's face, you know, so I think it was definitely to be a confrontation but, I mean there was so much involved in that shit, Brian Brideau was the set-up man

Q.: He started the whole thing eh?

A.: Well as far as I'm concerned I believe that, yes, I mean he didn't start the conflict between the Choice and the Golden Hawks, no, but he started, he initiated that whole thing that night I believe, because he informed them what shape Bill was in, who he was with, the fact that he was more or less by himself, that was something they had been waiting for...

Q.: Really!

A.: because he never backed down, you know but on a Friday night in that hotel when he was confronted there would be 100 guys, maybe 20 of them would be Choice and maybe 50 of them would be regular street guys who would be more or less on Bill's side if they had to choose sides, there would be fights and confrontations and so-on and so-forth, but just physical, just fists, not, I mean I never saw anybody pull a gun or anything like that in the Hotel.

Q.: Most people you figure would choose Bill's side eh?

A.: Yea, I would think so, there was, well first of all, I don't know what it was really all about, if it came down to drugs and he was stepping on their turf or whatever, or I don't know what else it could be, just rival bike gangs, but they really didn't see...I mean I can remember Lawrence Leon and his brother, I remember Lawrence would not come in that hotel and sit anywhere else other than with his back to the wall -- he was terrified, terrified, and that was for a long time, whereas Bill would come in and sit down wherever he wanted, you know a totally different kind of guy, like I say, really up front, you know he'd go head on, he wouldn't back down from anybody, but I don't think he ever thought it would come to a show-down like that....

Q.: So you think Brideau was the set-up man?

A.: Yea, I think he made the initial phone call and got the whole thing going, I think he called Sauve and then told Sauve what was going down and who was in there, Fred and Sonny were in there they were Outlaws, they were ex-Choice... they had been Choice for years and both of them changed when the Outlaws came up from the East, they were Kingston-based at that time, and there was quite a few of the Kingston Chapter I guess that went with the Outlaws and that was a blow to the Satan's Choice, and so here's Bill, a Golden Hawk, sitting with two Outlaws, ex-Choice members and they were all drunk, I mean they were drunk, they weren't just feeling good, they were drunk.

Q.: These guys from the Choice who came in that night?

A.: No, Bill and Fred, they were sitting in there for the day I guess, most of the afternoon, they were in there when I came to work....and they were already two sheets to the wind for the sure; no the Choice, the Choice didn't appear to be drunk, they weren't unruly, they weren't loud, they weren't obnoxious, there was just an awful lot of them and they were, it was almost methodical, you know when I think of it now it was almost methodical the way that it happened, they just kind of totally encased the whole hotel and then what happened to trigger the event itself I don't know, other than there was a conflict at the table and Sauve was at the table and what's her name, Jamie Hanna and; but what made them, I don't know, it was like I say it was very methodical, they all came in kind of at the same time and they all went to very strategic points in the hotel, the telephone, the bar, the back door, the cigarette machine, the pool room, the front door, the side door, you know they went and sat at tables but most of them just kind of milled around you know.....but I got the feeling we were totally encased with them, they were outside of the whole hotel kind of thing you know.

Q.: Well I guess there were 15 of them and they were very big men, they would have....

A.: 15 of them! there were more than 15 of them, there had to be I know ....I mean my God I can remember standing at the bar and looking into the pool room which was dark but you could see silhouettes and there was probably 10 people in there alone and there weren't that many patrons in the hotel that night.

Q.: Oh, 10 people in the pool room eh?

A.: I would say at least

Q.: OK, and the pool room..

A.: Was right at the very back, like at the front as you came in the main door...

Q.: But that was before the modifications, so that wouldn't have been a pool room then eh?

A.: Yea, well, its different now, but then it was the old red velvet wallpaper on the walls, not the plastic fantastic crap they put on it after, but like when you came in the main entrance at Walton St. and then...

Q.: That was pinball right?

A.: Pardon, pinball, pinball was at the back, well if you came in from the parking lot it was at the back of the bar.

Q.: Wasn't that shuffleboard back there?

A.: Well there was at one time a shuffleboard, yea, there was kind of two sections and the stage was set up there and the strippers used to strip and at one time the stage was set up right kind of centre of the sidewall, the John St. wall, the stage was set up there ...

Q.: Yea, it still is, the tacky red stuff is still on the pool room, but at the time that Bill was shot...

A.: The pool table was up at the other end, like at the front end of the actual hotel and there was a little room that was separate, well I mean it didn't have a proper closing door but it had like an archway going through and it had like a window thing that you could see through into there and it was shallowly lit you know ....there wasn't a whole lot of room in there.

Q.: So there were that many, how many people would you estimate?

A.: I, like I said, there was a table of them that there were 5 or 6 sitting at one table, I would say that there were at least 10 people in the pool room so, I would say at least 7 of those people were Choice, there was probably another 4 or 5 standing around the phone at the bar, um, around the cigarette machine at the back door there was about another half a dozen, there was 1 or 2 just kind of milling around, they would kind of sit and get up...15 just I don't know, there weren't that many patrons from town, there was an awful lot of people, they just seemed to come in everywhere at the same time.

Q.: Was Helen Mitchell there?

A.: I thought she was, I believe she said she wasn't.

Q.: But you saw her there?

A.: Well if my memory serves me correctly, she was there sometime during the evening, she usually was.

Q.: I see, did Bill every tell you he expected trouble somewhere down the road?

A.: Well he never came right out and told me that he was expecting trouble, he just always was expecting trouble.......quite often it seemed to be him at the centre of it and you anticipated if you saw Choice come in and Bill was in there and Lorne or Bill and Lorne then you would anticipate, you know as a waitress you would anticipate a problem brewing for sure, like I say if Choice came in you would anticipate a problem, I mean depending on who they were, you know if Merv came in or a couple of the quiet ones, they didn't cause any trouble and they socialized with their own guys from Port Hope, they grew up with half of them you know, but I don't maybe they just went along for the ride like I said I don't know that anybody knew what was going to go down... but as far as being involved in the murder, from my way of thinking, whatever they had planned to go down whether it was to lay a beating on him or whatever, you know, drag him off, pound him and leave him in a ditch, whatever they planned to do, whatever their idea was, they were trespassing, they had no right to be there in the first place and they were all fully aware of that, just the whole situation, it was just a total set-up, just a total set-up, they couldn't have gotten him at a more vulnerable time....from my way of thinking he was without comrades.

Q.: What about Fred and...

A.: Well I mean Fred and Sonny, he partied with them that day but I don't know that he would have considered them, I mean, they had been Choice, they were Outlaws right, he had no intentions of going Outlaw or having anything to do with Choice, but once again Fred had grown up in the area, so once again Fred and Bill had to cross a number of times during the years, I mean that wasn't uncommon, you know, they kind of put their rivalries aside you know and party for a day or hang out for a day or whatever, but that wasn't the way with Choice....whenever they were around, and like I say they had no business being there in the first place.....they didn't have the priviledge of entering that establishment any more....they weren't flying colours, I didn't see any colours.... but Leo ran the hotel and he could see dollar signs, by the time he realized how serious it was he thought he should walk to the police station.... but when she said to him Leo these guys are all Choice you better call the cops he turned to the other waitress Kathy and told her not to cash out, get busy, and he knew who they were.

Q.: Really, really, so Leo was willing to serve them?

A.: Well, if he could have got us waitress to do it he probably would have, I just put my tray down....I had seen these guys before,they certainly weren't there to have a good time.

Q.: So they really burnt their bridges at this place eh?

A.: Yea, they had, I mean like I said it was constant, there was fights, there was incidents in the parking lots, people being beat up, maybe they irked them, maybe they challenged them in some way, but some of the people there was no need....I remember a guy named Stan, kind of a pudgy guy, he'd get drunk and he'd get goofy and I remember Horner he'd had enough one night and he just pulverized this guy, and this guy was no challenge, he wasn't a fighter, he didn't even, I don't remember him doing any confronting of any kind you know, it was just something I guess that Horner wanted to do, you know that type of thing and you know with the stippers ........and she kicked the bottle out of his hand..

Q.: Oh, one of the stippers did?

A.: Yea, a gutsy little broad

Q.: Good for her

A.: He was really passed it, it was the same night he had a hold of me at the bar, she was just a little wee slip of a thing and she did this act, he was sitting right out front and centre and getting drunk and he was just tipping this quart back to his mouth and she just booted it ..... she was a pretty cute little girl.

Q.: Is there anyone in there who you might have recognized who was never identified, see even these characters they won't tell us who else was in the bar so we've being trying to figure out who other Choice members?

A.: I don't know, we looked at pictures and pictures and pictures and went through the line up, one person I still say was there that has gotten out and saying he wasn't there was Tee Hee, I'm pretty positive.

Q.: Oh yea, he was definitely not there, I'll tell you why I say that, because there is another fellow who looks a little like him and I wonder if it might have been him, did you ever hear the name "Beachball"?

A.: No

Q.: OK, see since that time we've even seen the wire taps, Tee Hee was somewhere else, he was actually recorded on a police wire tap, which we have.

A.: Somewhere else at what time?

Q.: In Kitchener at 8:40 p.m.

A.: and so he couldn't get to the hotel by 10 to 11?

Q.: No

A.: If my memory serves me correctly, I think the Port Hope police did that run and made it on time.

Q.: Um hm, did they tell you that?

A.: Somebody told me that, or somebody did that run and made it on time, I'm sure I could do it; 8:40, 20 to 9, that gives me 2 hours plus to get from Kitchener to Port Hope on the 401 at that time of night...

Q.: It's pushing it.

A.: Yep, I guess so, but it still could be done.

Q.: Its still pushing it.

A.: The reason I'm so sure is because he is related to Randy, he is cousin or second-cousin or third-cousin or something and Randy introduced me to him at one point, one night when he wa in the hotel and probably just because he was related and he was Choice and came from that particular clubhouse and a lot of the Kitchener guys seemed richer,smarter, more sophisticated than the Port Hope Peterborough guys, those guys from Kitchener had leather coats, not jackets, coats and big diamond rings, you know, they were Choice but they didn't wear tacky clothes, they didn't look dirty you wouldn't even know that they were associated until you got to know who was who and so anyway I had been introduced and I was so sure he was there. Your working into the wee hours of the night here aren't you.

Q.: That's normal, ha,ha, its quite normal; I'm surprized that your that convinced...

A.: I always was.

Q.: Yea, do you remember anything that struck you, anything you saw that made you remember him?

A.: Just the fact that I had been introduced to him, and he had this skinny hair, long, long skinny hair pulled back, down his back, he wears glasses and if he has a double, then he has a double, I mean, he didn't say Hi Gayle, how are you doing, nobody said nothing.

Q.: What about Hurren, do you remember him, Larry Hurren was his name.

A.: Yes

Q.: Did you know him?

A.: I didn't really know him, like he wasn't, like I didn't know him like I know Merv or Sauve, you know, or even recognize him that well, because they were around all the time and Merv was a Cobourg person and I grew up in Cobourg so, I knew him before but never on a social level with him .....in the hotel...

Q.: Didn't like any of them either?

A.: Um, not too many of them, I didn't mind Merv, Sauve never, you know he never did anything to me personally, he was never, I don't recall him ever causing any major problems in the hotel, like they had a lot of dumb kids striking, they were losing power and they were fighting for it back and they were picking up anybody, and Brian Brideau was on and off with the Choice constantly and he was striker, and he was, and he wasn't.

Q.: So he was a striker at some point eh?

A.: As far as I recall he was,yea, and thenI think he had a falling-out with them so he wasn't in their good books, but, I mean he was just stoned all the time.

Q.: Was he in prison at the time on day parole?

A.: Oh gee, he might have been, he might have been, I don't really recall.

Q.: Do you remember Susan Smith?

A.: No, I don't think I do, should I have known her at the time?

Q.: Yes, she was sitting at the table next to Matiyeks, from the Ennismore area, that's where she was born, Ennismore, she was in and out of... how about Dan Racicot?

A.: No I don't remember.

Q.: Bruce Munroe?

A.: I can't place the name.

Q.: I just wondered, Munroe has been around that place for a long time, you know, Port Hope.

A.: Who knows, like I say its been a long time...

Q.: I'm sorry -- Bruce Martin.

A.: That doesn't ring a bell either.

Q.: Did you know Peter LeBrash?

A.: Yes

Q.: and Peter was there, at the bar?

A.: I believe, I don't remember, I don't remember, I remember Rod Stewart at the bar, was he with Rod, I think somebody was with Rod, I don't know.

Q.: Yea, what did Rod Stewart do, do you remember anything in particular that he did -- to help out?

A.: He was the first one over to Bill, and I grabbed towels..

Q.: So you grabbed towels?

A.: Yea

Q.: So what happened to the towels?

A.: I guess I was under the impression that maybe I could help.

Q.: Yes, sure..

A.: I don't remember, I think I put them under his head, I think I knelt down on my knees....I don't remember too much, he was alive then

Q.: He was eh?

A.: Yea, he was alive.....called his brother....

Q.: Do you remember him having -- I guess you didn't see any weapon in his hand at that time? See you know what the claim is, the claim is that he had a weapon in his hand.

A.: Yea, but I didn't see any weapon in his hand, I just say I didn't see, I didn't see anything like that, you know no drugs deals going down or nothing they were too drunk to get into anything like that, except for the incident with Brideau and I would think that if any guns were involved with that I don't know why he wouldn't just blow Brideau away -- he was very, very angry and I don't know what had happened, I don't know what started the argument, but Brideau had gone over to the table. Dandy was sitting at first and they got quite loud and I remember Bill had Brideau's head when he sat down, in between the chair between Bill and Fred and Bill had his head somehow down under the table and Fred was kicking it, or Fred has his head and Bill was kicking him, so I went over and I told them... and that was the end of it....just take their ... outside, and that was entirely up to them what happened but I didn't want to see it and of course that's what they did, they went outside and they came back in minus Brideau and Brideau came back in shortly afterwards ............

Q.: Sorry, so you said Rod Stewart was just kneeling down there and he said to stay away?

A.: Yea,

Q.: Um, and he was just kneeling there

A.: (can't hear this answer)

Q.: Did he seem upset, or..yell or..

A.: Yell, hum, everybody was upset, everybody was upset.

Q.: Did Rod Stewart say anything else at the time or

A.: I don't remember .......

Q.: So he just said stay away?

A.: I think so, something to that effect I'm not quoting word for word, something to that effect and if I remember correctly I thought it was because he didn't want me to get close to Bill, like not because there was any reason other than he thought it would be very upsetting for me. Just, go away, kind of thing you know that kind of idea.

Q.: Was there anyone else standing there at the time?

A.: I don't remember, there was, there were still some patrons that I don't think had moved, I think they were just kind of glued to their seats, I think that it was just absolutely mass confusion, one minute....

Q.: Was anyone with Rod Stewart when he was over there?

A.: No, not that I recall, he was by himself.

Q.: He was alone?

A.: Yea, I think he was sitting by the bar, there was somebody else at the bar, I can't remember who, but somebody he was with or something, I can't remember, it seems to me there were two of them at the bar.

Q.: So when he was beside the body, he was kneeling beside the body was he?

A.: I believe so.

Q.: There was no one with him at that time?

A.: Not that I recall, there could have been but I don't recall it now.

Q.: But you definitely recall he said, stay away?

A.: He said something you know, in terms of.... don't look, or something like that.

Q.: So how long were you in getting the towels?

A.: Oh well I just kind of did it on my way by, huh, just kind of did it on my way by; I knew who it was that was going to go down, I knew who it was,and I don't know, it was the strangest feeling, everything was very quiet, everybody was very calm, you know like all the Choice were very calm, they didn't leave quickly, they didn't seem you know it almost seemed like everthing went into slow motion, they were really slow, they were quiet they weren't rowdy, they weren't drunk, or at least they didn't appear to be; they just kind of moved very methodically into very strategic places and this motion started, and then they kind of stayed there for a little while and then this motion started. I don't know if it came out of my mouth but I was just thinking, Oh my God it was Bill.

Q.: Did you see someone shoot him?

A.: I saw that whole table kind got up and started walking with the one guy Comeau, you know identified as Comeau, walked across the room you know, not quite shrouded with everyone else, right, then he just, bang,bang,bang, a motion from his hand...

Q.: So your sure it was Comeau that shot him ?

A.: Yea, just like I said, it was a blonde person, a short dumpy blonde person not a tall dark person.

Q.: OK, so, but you had seen Comeau sitting with Matiyek?

A.: I saw Comeau sitting with Merv .....Comeau was almost right across from....

Q.: So Comeau was sitting with ...

A.: We had to go on with our business too.

Q.: Sure, sure.

A.: There were people drinking and you know and plus there was this thing that you kind of just didn't know what to do with yourself, like I wanted to run out the door is what I wanted to do and then when I saw Leo return, then I thought, ah good, you know, now something will be done here, Leo has been on the phone and he just, huh, he doesn't know .......(?)

Q.: Yea, he seems to be inclined that way.

A.: Extremely.

Q.: So it was definitely Comeau that did the shooting?

A.: In my mind, yea.

Q.: OK, but you earlier told me Comeau was sitting with Bill along with Rick and Jamie Hanna.

A.: I didn't tell you that.

Q.: OK

A.: Not in this conversation I didn't.

Q.: OK, sorry I must have been confused.

A.: I don't recall if Comeau went and sat at the table or not, I said Brideau had gone over.

Q.: Oh yea

A.: I mean the people came and went from that table all the time, I know Sauve sat with him for a while, I don't know how many, I don't recall you know, now I don't recall who else went over there and sat.

Q.: I guess you know that Comeau had a bullet removed from himself eh?

A.: Yea, I have the book, huh.

Q.: I haven't had a chance to read it, is it any good?

A.: Um, its not bad, its not badly written I guess, it definitely slants towards the Choice, but

Q.: Oh boy, I don't like books that are not impartial.

A.: Well, it does to me, but then I'm partial then you know so you'd have to read it for yourself. But I defintely get the feeling from that book that he, and also when he called me he was definitely pro-Choice, you know his language and so-on and so-forth.

Q.: Oh, well that's not too good is it?

A.: Well, like I say, you read accounts of these things and who would ever think, you know, people I have run into out here, people that I had no idea knew anything, at a job I was at, we were just sitting around talking at coffee break one day and somebody mentioned my name and a guy looked at me and said he heard my name somewhere and then the next coffee break came and Bingo it hit him, he said I know where I heard your name, he had been back partying with a bunch of Choice and the book had just come out and my name had been passed around because of this book.

Q.: Oh I see, he didn't make anything of it though eh? Did you have a conversation with him.

A.: This author guy, or this guy that I met at work?

Q.: Yea, exactly.

A.: Well he was sub-contracted by the guy I was working for, to do some welding and stuff, he was a biker himself, right, he just said that the book had come out and everybody was real hot to trot about this book and stuff, that's where he had heard my name, he had been socializing with a bunch of Choice I guess. Same as the guy that found me, it just about freaked me out, I said how did you find me, he told me, there's three Gayle Thompson's in the phone book for Qualicum Beach, but I just went eenie-meanie-miney-mo and I picked you first off; but then he proceeded to tell me what happened, that it came from Randy and through relatives, well it was through Sharon, but it was Sharon..

Q.: Sharon who? Sorry..

A.: Sharon Beauvais

Q.: Oh yes

A.: and her family used to live right behind me, when I lived in Port Hope, and it was through her and her brother Chris, yea, her brother Chris and his girl-friend.

Q.: What was her, Chris's last name?

A.: Whatever Sharon's maiden name was, I can't remember, anyway that's how I got interviewed.....

Q.: Oh, I see.

A.: So it came like through Rick Sauve's wife and through my ex-, and so he said to me did it ever occur to you that you moved just about to the other end of the world, and I said to him -- did it ever occur to you why?

Q.: Did anyone suggest to you at any point, like a police officer or like did anyone ever help you with your statement between the time of the incident and the time of the trial?

A.: No, ha,ha, they just took your statement, like they took everybodies.

Q.: Did you ever discuss the case with Sam McReelis?

A.: Not other than that he questioned me at the time of the incident, like I say, I do not remember, I know Sam was there and I know he was heavily involved with the case and so were all the other police of Port Hope, but I do not remember who was across the table when I gave my statement.

Q.: How long was it before you got over to Bill, I mean, Rod said, stay back, stay back or whatever words to that effect?

A.: Well, as soon as I came out of the washroom I just went, like I mean, I saw he was laying on the floor, you know, I knew he'd been shot so you know it was just kind of instinct, that I kind of thought I could help in some way.

Q.: Did you ignore...

A.: I don't remember if someone said grab towels or what made me do that, or if somebody else already had towels, I don't remember.

Q.: Did you do anything when Rod said Stay away, did you react to that or did you just ignore him?

A.: I probably just ignored him. I might have moved a little slower, I might have hesitated or at least stopped my direction....maybe it was Rick who called the ambulance, I don't know who called the ambulance, Leo and Julie weren't there they had gone to the police station, they didn't come back until after the ambulance was already in there, then they came back.

Q.: Did you go to Dave Hill's house that night?

A.: No I didn't, I went right home

Q.: Oh, I see.

A.: because I had Rick Gailbraith follow me because I was still quite upset, I didn't live very far away but I had the car that night, Randy's and I had to tell him what had happened and I remember just crawling upstairs and Rick was right behind me, I was real upset.

Q.: I can imagine.

A.: I don't think Rick stayed for very long, I remember kind of blurting it out to Randy, trying to get it out to make sense., I don't even remember how it came out.

Q.: Do you know if any of the other gals in the restaurant, sorry, in the hotel, went over to Dave Hill's place?

A.: I don't know.

Q.: You didn't hear anything about that?

A.: I don't recall.

Q.: Do you remember if any of Rod Stewart's friends joined him at the scene at any point?

A.: I don't remember that either.

Q.: Do you remember when the coppers came in?

A.: Well, vaguely.

Q.: Ambulance -- do you remember when the ambulance?

A.: I remember them there, I remember them there.

Q.: Who were the ambulance drivers, do you remember?

A.: I don't remember that.

Q.: Just wondering if they might be guys you knew then.

A.: I don't recall, they might have been but I don't recall, when they were there attending to Bill that's when I went and called, like I said the first thing was that I went to call was his Dad, and then I hesitated because I thought about trying to tell his Dad right and I didn't think I would be able to do that and so I called his brother, if I recall correctly I just said Bill has been shot you'd better get down here and they, by the time they got to the hotel, no, as I recall I was still on the phone and they were carrying Bill out and I said no don't come to the hotel, go to the hospital........he died on his way out of the hotel or he died in the ambulance, and then Gord and his other brother came in ... I remember Julie and Leo coming back...it seemed to take a long time but ..... it wasn't very far but it seemed to take a long time that night.

Q.: So, did a police officer go with the amublance drivers?

A.: I can't remember

Q.: OK, and Julie and Leo came back while they were there?

A.: I believe so, I think the ambulance drivers were just taking him out when Julie came back, I remember Julie just plumping down at the table when she came back in, I ...... Leo

Q.: ..because..

A.: Well because I felt like he'd left us, you know, he'd abandoned us, he knew, he knew who these people were and he knew what they were capable of and he walked out and left his staff, when he should have just picked up the phone and then ... but don't cash out on us ....... called the cops....I don't know where he went from there, I don't know how long he was in the hotel or how long it took him to leave to go, they didn't drive they walked down to the police station and then when they came back it was too late, and I quit that night.

Q.: So you quit working there?

A.: Yes

Q.: You quit your job?

A.: I couldn't believe that they would do that, I mean after all the problems we had and getting these letters .....they all would have been charged with trespassing, I don't know what would have happened you know, I don't know what would have happened if they had called the police, maybe two officers would have come, well I don't know, maybe more people would have died that night, I don't know, maybe nobody would have died, I don't know. Maybe if Leo had actually taken a stand and just picked up the phone and dialed the number, maybe it would have been enough for them to leave and maybe that would have put a stop to the whole incident, I don't know.

Q.: Leo didn't say anything to you about that?

A.: About what?

Q.: About the fact that these fellows were in the bar and that..

A.: No. No. Like I say, I approached him, right, he was behind the bar and Cathy was just going to cash out and I said, Leo call the cops, these guys are all Choice, they're not supposed to be in here, call the cops, and he just turned to Cathy and said, don't cash out yet -- we might need you, or something to that effect.

Q.: Was Cathy kind of the head waitress?

A.: No, Julie was the head waitress, I think I'd worked there longer than Cathy had.

Q.: Do remember a person named Gail Doyle?

A.: Yea, ha, ha, I would never have until you mentioned her name, humph, and Faith.

Q.: Faith, her daughter?

A.: Faith -- her daughter, who was married to who -- Babcock.

Q.: Yea, that rings a bell.

A.: Brian Babcock.

Q.: Is her name Faith Babcock?

A.: Well I'm not, I couldn't say that they got legally married, I don't know. I think they had a kid, they had a kid I'm sure, yes they did, and they called him Dylan? -- I remember this little guy, this little hippy guy with an earing, a real cute little kid. Brian was ....

Q.: Wasn't he a member of the Choice

A.: Yes

Q.: I see, what kind of person was Gail Doyle, did she work at the bar?

A.: It seems to me that she worked at the restaurant sometimes, she might have filled in occasionaly, she wasn't a steady waitress, not one of our regulars, she might have filled in though ......... she was a biker chick.

Q.: Gail Doyle was?

A.: Actually she was a pretty tough lady.

Q.: I see.

A.: ......I don't remember if she had an old man or who he was or anything, but I do remember parties, I never went to them although Randy tried to get me to go to them, they had a clubhouse, what was the name of the road..

Q.: Joslin?

A.: It was back, yea maybe, Randy used to .......it was a little ramshackle place they had out there and they used to have these wild parties. Faith and Gail would go to these parties.

Q.: Are you sure of that? ... that they

A.: I never went so I can't say, that I was there and saw them there.

Q.: I see, you just heard about it?

A.: Yea, I heard about it.

Q.: I see. Who else would go, people like Susan Foote and Jamie Hanna?

A.: Well, Jamie maybe, I don't remember Footer ever going, I don't remember Cathy ever going to those kinds of places. You were just asking for trouble if you went, as far as I was concerned, I would have been asking for trouble if I had gone, and I wasn't made of the same stuff as Gail and Faith Doyle, right. I couldn't handle situations like that, right, so I just stayed away. I don't recall Footer ever going and I don't remember Cathy ever going, Helen Mitchell would go. Some of the strippers would go, you know.

Q.: There were no strippers on that night I guess, eh?

A.: I don't know if there had been. I guess not, because there was no show that late, I don't know why -- I don't know why.

Q.: You don't remember what time it was do you, that he was shot?

A.: Just before 11 o'clock, around 11 o'clock, just before, maybe about 10 to 11, maybe it was just after 11. I don't think the whole thing took any more than 20 minutes or half an hour maximum.

Q.: Did you have a TV on, with the News starting at that time or something like that, or any reason to...

A.: Well the one reason that I do remember is because the split-shift which Cathy was working went from, I think it was from 4 to 11, OK, then we ran a regular, like a regular day shift from noon until 7 and then the night shift would come in at 7 until 1:30 and then the clean-up, and then the stipper, when we had the strippers in there we used to get all the factories in after work and so that time between 3:30 and 4 o'clock in the afternoon when the factories got off and 11 o'clock at night, I mean a lot of those guys, their poor wives didn't see them, you know, they came in in bunches and they'd be there for the whole night, for every show that you put on, you know, depending on the girl, you know, of course, some of them were very attractive and ha,ha, boy there were a lot of poor wives left out, coping with the kids on their own, but that's why we ran the split-shift, because it would get exceptionally busy, but we made really good money.

Q.: I can imagine. Your pretty sure it was Comeau that did the shooting eh?

A.: Yes.

Q.: and where was he sitting before he did that?

A.: He was sitting at the same table as Merv I think, which was, not on, not a table right on the wall by the men's washroom, but a table in the first row of tables, there was a couple of pillars that came down, in that, there was a table right almost directly across the room from where Bill was sitting, either the end table in that row or the second one in from the main entrance, but in that row, not against the wall.

Q.: That's the row closest to the bar eh?

A.: Well you walked down that row, towards the bar, yes. There was maybe 4 tables down there, something like that, kind of in a row ....

Q.: So, maybe just off the corner of the bar sort of thing?

A.: Yea, but like up towards that side door where they exited, OK, across the room.

Q.: Pretty close to that pillar there..

A.: between there and the men's washroom, closest to the men's washroom, OK

Q.: I see. I see, and Comeau was sitting there, who else was at that table?

A.: Merv was.

Q.: OK, anyone elseS?

A.: I don't believe that I can recall right now, but I know Merv was there.

Q.: and Comeau was sitting with him, and then, so there was 5 or 6 sitting at the same table?

A.: Yes. I feel like I'm on the stand again you know.

Q.: Yea, I'm just trying to get it right that's all; so I guess those tables, they'd hold 5 or 6 people quite easily.

A.: Yea, well we'd have you know, 4 chairs probably, but it was nothing for 5 or 6 people to sit at one of the tables.

Q.: Yea, they still do actually.

A.: I don't recall them pushing tables together or anything like that, they just kind of, a bunch of them sat there, and a bunch of them in the pool room and a bunch of them around the phone, a couple of them stood around the bar and around the corner at the back end of the bar and at the cigarette machine, and where Fred and Sonny went I don't know either. Sonny, I remember seeing him back by the cigarette machine, Fred I don't remember seeing him.

Q.: I see.

A.: and when the Choice left, Fred and Sonny were gone too .....they might have left before, they might have, and if I could have I sure as hell would have, if I could have.

Q.: Did you talk to Mr. Stewart -- Rod Stewart, after the event?

A.: You mean socially talk to him?

Q.: Oh sure, just to compare notes, or ..

A.: I don't recall, but I may have, I remember we all just pulled together, we all kind of wanted to be together.

Q.: Sure, that makes sense.

A.: .....maybe it was more helpfull in numbers, I don't know, more comfortable.

Q.: Sure, how did you pull together?

A.: I mean we were all good friends anyway, you know, Footer and Cathy and I, you know, well Gallbraith like I said I was a little disappointed in, but I mean he was a good friend of ours as well, and I mean you know that was our life, you know the hotel, Randy worked in a hotel, I worked in a hotel, you know, that was your social thing too, you worked and it was like socializing.

Q.: Sure.

A.: The people that were involved in it, I mean, it was pretty heavy duty stuff. Today it would be pretty heavy duty stuff but back then it was really quite devastating, I mean, I can remember that we, I couldn't even go to the Becker's store without I had to have a police cruiser or a policeman somewhere in the vicinity to watch me, it got to be a ritual -- I'm going to Becker's now, for milk or whatever ha,ha, and away you'd go and you'd get there and they'd be there.

Q.: Did you ever get your payments alright, um, for your um, attendance at the trial and so-on?

A.: Yep, as far as I remember.

Q.: Some people didn't you know.

A.: Oh really!

Q.: Yea, so I heard, now that's a rip-off, making people go through all that.

A.: I don't know, um, actually you know I found, um, I don't know, I thought that everyone involved in it, like you know with authority was very very good, we were treated super, you know, they did their best to make us feel comfortable and safe. You know, I changed hotels and went to work at the other hotel and they knew that, and my boss was very very good, if I saw someone come in or something that made me nervous he would just ask the person to leave or I'd leave the hotel and I remember leaving to walk home, you know, and I'd leave and they, I wouldn't get a ride home or anything but they would follow me in the car while I walked home, which was very comforting, at the time.

Q.: Yea, I can imagine, thinking of guys like Horner out there, I mean.

A.: Yea, well, and people that scared me a lots too was some of the women, some of the Choice's women, because they weren't....

Q.: Do you know any namesS?

A.: Do you know the only one I can remember is Dawn. Dawn, now who the hell was she with ..... she was a big girl, and they on a couple of occasions, I don't know who else, I don't remember their names, but they were either Choice chicks, Choice old ladies, or whatever, and they would come into the Gany and sit in the Gany and have a couple of beers and they would just, or I felt they were staying at me, and Dawn would stare at me, it was very unnerving.

Q.: I can imagine.

A.: Some of those women were worse than the guys you know.

Q.: It's still pretty petty, you know, coming into the bar like that and just..

A.: Well I guess, but like I say, you know, it was a pretty devasting thing, and I guess in their own fashing, I mean, they were just as devasted as we were.

Q.: Did anyone ever threaten you or anything like that?

A.: No, not verbally threatening, they were just there, I would leave the hotel to walk home, the cops would be there, they would be there in their car too, so you know, I don't know that, you know other than that kind of thing on a few occasions, you know, nobody ever came to me, you know, one on one and threaten me or anything no.

Q.: The police and the crown prosecutors, they were generally pretty good to you ehSSS?

A.: They were excellent.

Q.: Good.

A.: and I'm sure that they treated all the witnesses the same, you know, with the exception ...

Q.: I've heard a few complaints, nothing too serious.

A.: Have you, well, I was certainly treated very well, you know, I wasn't, you know they tried their best to not make it any more upsetting than it absolutely had to be, you know...um

Q.: Did you have to spend a lot of time in London?

A.: I think I spent two days there, it was pretty grueling on the stand.

Q.: Boy, I can imagine.

A.: Yes it was grueling, but once again, everyone was really very good, the judge was excellent um, I mean, its tradition in Canada we don't get chairs, but I got a chair.

Q.: Oh good for you.

A.: Yea, I think, well my legs wouldn't hold me up after a while you know, different things, the lawyers were just doing their jobs but they're tricksters and they would ask you a question and you'd start with your response and then they would stop you -- Thank you very much Miss Thompson, that's all for now, you know, and you hadn't finished you answer and obviously if they had allowed you to continue your answer it came out a totally different meaning than where they had stopped you, you know. On one particular occasion, I don't remember the exact question, it had something to do with the gun, and I think it was Kerbel, who was grueling, and he did that to me, stopped me part way through my answer and the judge noticed that I hadn't and he asked me if I had finished my answer and I said No, and so he forced Mr. Kerbel to allow my answer to conclude, which of course, like I say, changed the whole aspect of what I was saying; he just wanted the jury to hear so much of it.

Q.: Good, I don't have a very high opinion of lawyers either.

A.: Well, like I say, they were doing their job.

Q.: Yea, um, did you actually see the gun?

A.: Part of it.

Q.: Sure, you don't remember what colour it was do you?

A.: Dark, and the motion, and then bang-bang-bang.

Q.: Oh yea.

A.: So what do you think is going to happen here.

Q.: I don't know, I really don't know.

A.: Do you think these guys have a chance, do they really have a chance of getting out?

Q.: Um

A.: They do, don't they!

Q.: Um, none of them shot Bill Matiyek, not that that makes any difference as you know, I mean, if indeed they all planned the damn thing then they're as guilty as the guy who did it, right, but none of them shot him.

A.: Who shot him?

Q.: I really shouldn't say, but, there's hard conclusive evidence as to who did.

A.: Then, and is that person, why hasn't that person been ...

Q.: Stunning, I don't know why.

A.: If there is 100% conclusive evidence, why isn't that person in jail?

Q.: I think they will be, I think they will be, as a matter of fact I think they are right now.

A.: But not for anything to do with this?

Q.: Exactly, and ...

A.: Is it someone who was presented at the trial?

Q.: I can't say that ... because I'll tell you why, you know, I'm instrumental in that, and I, you know, let the person be tried and have their day in court, you know what I mean. I have to do that, by law, otherwise any evidence I gather against somebody you know. It was kind of surprising that they actually didn't get the person and I think that should be straightened out pretty quick, because Bill Matiyek, he doesn't seem like such a bad guy, I mean...

A.: Well, he wasn't, you know, he wasn't, like certainly not from my point of view. He used to pick me kid up from play school and ..... like he, I don't know anybody who would really say, I mean, I'm sure he had his short comings you know, he drank a lot and he was rowdy and pretty loud, you know, just like everbody else, he was a biker and he did drugs...

Q.: Like half my Grade 13 class, ha, ha.

A.: Exactly, but as far as being a person, you know, like I say he was part of our family, and he came from a fine family too, not a rich family, you know, not a la-di-da family, they are farm people you know, it was one of these that pulled together, you know, they were close, they were a close family, they were,I don't know if they still are, I'm sure they still are, his parents were just wonderful to us too, you know, they were so, well I guess that they were grateful that we stood up and said what we had to say; now you saying that we don't have the right people, but we do have the right people.

Q.: All I'm saying is that none of those people actually shot him, you know.

A.: Yea, I know, but for them, it was a devasting thing, you know I'm sure his family was aware of what part of his life was all about too, you know, he love with a passion, he lived with a passion, what else can I say, he worked hard, he was a hard working man. He held down a good job, he got lots of other guys jobs on the pipeline, some of them are still working on the pipeline today, you know, him and Lorne were the original pipeline workers, you know.

Q.: Is that right eh.

A.: I mean even Lorne, I don't agree about lots of things about Lorne, but I mean he was nevre, to me he was certainly never a nasty person or anything, you know, but the conflict, I think was just a power struggle more than anything, because Bill would never back down from these people; if they could intimidate you then that's what they thrived on and I think that probably that's what they thought that night, like nobody will have the heart, nobody will have the heart to go against us, because they had intimidated us for so long.

Q.: These guys from Toronto, the guys like Comeau and so on, they weren't among this Peterborough bunch of houligans eh?

A.: No, you'd I mean, you know they'd have, if they had a major event happening then you'd get Kitchener guys down and you'd get Toronto guys down and so-on and so-forth, but mainly it was the Port Hope and Peterborough guys that we'd have, you know...

Q.: Was there a Port Hope chapter?

A.: I don't know if there was, I don't think there was actually, well maybe there was a little chapter at one time, because they've had that little shack, you know, but whether that was just a party house, or like whether they, I don't know if they had actual meetings, I presume that they do have actual meetings, but you know, I don't know if they had monthly meetings or what kind of action, you know.

Q.: What kind of club did Bill have, was it a nice bunch of guys?

A.: Um,yea they were, they were, you know, they weren't, I mean they'd come in and they'd get drunk and they'd get rowdy, you know, and horse around, I mean, I can remember Bill being Superman one night, you know, standing on top of his chair with I don't know what he had around his shoulders, saying Superman, and you know they were just horsing around and there were 5 or 6 of them in there, but they weren't, a lot of them were family guys, you know, they had kids, they had homes, they had respectable jobs, they were kind of week-end bikers.

Q.: Sure.

A.: They weren't like the Choice, they didn't dedicate their lives to it, I mean, they loved it, but they didn't dedicate their lives to it and they didn't hurt anybody else to do what they did, you know, when they had their field days and stuff they just went away and did their thing, and lots of local guys asssociated with them and partied with them, like Ian, Galbraith and so on. I mean there were lots of guys like Roger and you know, all kinds of bikers in the area, they called themselves independent riders but they would socialize with the Golden Hawks, they wouldn't socialize with the Choice, you know obviously because they weren't these heavy-duty dudes. They were just, they enjoyed their bikes, they enjoyed their field days, they enjoyed a good party, you know. I would never have been afraid to go to a Golden Hawks party in a clubhouse, never, in a million years, I wouldn't have thought twice about it but there is no way I would go to a Choice clubhouse. I don't think I would have survived.

Q.: Yea, did you ever go to a Golden Hawks party?

A.: No, I mean there was, like I say, you know there was a bunch of bikers, a whole bunch of people from the town, we'd have pig-roasts and stuff and all the independent riders would be there, Bill would be there and Lorne might be there, you know, but not as a, you know, as a club event per se, I never attended any of those.

Q.: I see.

A.: And the two that I knew best were Lorne and Bill.

Q.: You didn't know any of the others?

A.: Well, I knew them to see them, you know, but I didn't really know them as such, of course you got to know a lot of Choice real quick, ha,ha, they made themselves known. They were just, you know, they were just the opposite, like the Golden Hawks would come in and just party and they didn't even do that very often as a group, whereas the Choice would be in there every day, every day.

Q.: Did you ever know a girl named Jackie Lessard?

A.: The name sounds familiar but I don't know where I'd know her from, was she a Port Hope person?

Q.: She's from the area.

A.: I can't put a face with the name.

Q.: and you didn't bump into Bruce Martin or Susan Smith, by any chance?

A.: Not that I recall.

Q.: How about Nig Castinette?

A.: Nig Castinette I remember.

Q.: Was Nig in the bar that night?

A.: Ummm, he could have been, I don't remember....he was either in or out...he was a ...person

Q.: He was a what person?

A.: A street person, he always seemed to be on the street.....he'd come in the hotel and hang out and go to the other hotel and hang out, ha,ha, to catch the action I guess.

Q.: Sure, um, did you social with Julie?

A.: Yes I did.

Q.: She sure seems like a nice lady.

A.: She is a nice lady.

Q.: I'll tell you a joke, just between you and me, I've been in the bar a lot, under cover in the last year, and, she doesn't know who I am but she sure does flirt with me a lot, ha, ha.

A.: Does she, hee, hee, well Julie has a very, yea, she has a way about her for sure, I guess she hasn't changed very much, she always kept herself immaculate,

Q.: She still does.

A.: you know, her nails were perfect and, we had some, I lived at Julie's with Julie and her mom for awhile.

Q.: Cheryl Hunter?

A.: Yea, ha, ha, Cheryl Hunter, so you must know Randy too then eh, I mean if you've been hanging out in the hotel you must..

Q.: I might do, I can tell you I don't recall coming face to face with him and knowing that was Randy, but I probably have.

A.: Oh really.

Q.: He still hangs out there eh?

A.: Oh definitely, he's a 42 year old going on 17.

Q.: Is that right eh.

A.: I guess at the, I didn't hear it, I was told about it afterward, that at the end of his testimony -- he went to court in jeans and a tee-shirt, he had a very, very cold, nasty way about him and I think that's the attitude he'd bring to court, and after he had testified, the judge, I guess before he sat down or whatever, he made some comment about not being able to understand how a person like me could possibly be with a person like him.

Q.: Oh really.

A.: Yea, I don't remember who it was told me, I don't remember if it was one of the police or if it was the crown attorney....but his attitude was plain right off the bat.

Q.: He was pretty anti-Choice.

A.: Randy?

Q.: Yea

A.: Oh he hung out with the Choice a lot.

Q.: Is that right eh?

A.; Yea, but he never, he never became a member, he didn't have a bike, he had bikes on and off, but he never kept his shit together long enough to keep one, but, oh yes, it wasn't beyond him by any means to go partying with them.

Q.: Oh, I see, but he would also party with Bill.

A.: Yep

Q.: He'd party with anybody.

A.: Yes, exactly, he probably still....

End of tape.

Handwritten notes and transcript to be filed -- taped 1.5 hours -- notes for all 3-plus hrs..

Gayle Thomson says:

1) Stewart and Doug Peart were buddies

2) Stewart knelt near Matiyek's body and did nothing except tell her to stay away when she came out of washroom -- stay away from B.M.

3) It was our side against theirs

4) Bill and Julie were sweet on each other (Merv has mentioned this before)

Helen Anne Beamer, married 1982, lives in 2-bedroom basement apt. at 43 Thorncroft.

- from Tanglewood to Niagara Falls to Sundowner, the Playpen in Oshawa

- was chased out of the Simcoe Hotel

- in 1979 she ran into Tee Hee in Niagara Falls

- Brian Babcock and Gord Van Haarlem

- I didn't think they were capable of doing something like that

- they didn't deserve what they got

- I was at the bar sitting near Bill

- I bought Bill about 6 Sumbuka; the thing you light on fire

- as the guys were coming in I went to bathroom

- Larry Hurren came in -- he is gorgeous

- he came in with some dark haired guy

- I was there at the time it happened but I don't remember how it happened

- I ran out the door and went to what is now the Olympia Restaurant

- I went to the washroom at Olympia and came back via front door and back door

- I knew something had happened

- Sam McReelis found me in St. Catherines on Moira St. with Larry Lytle

- McReelis asked me if I was there

- they came and picked me up

- I said I had seen colours

- there were two guys who looked similar

- Gord Van Haarlem was in Peterborough

- Tee Hee must have

- McReelis never told me what to say

- Sam bought Jason some toy guns

- I said Sonny

- Sonny was pretty good, I liked him

- I had a crush on Earl Johns

- I knew Sam real well

- I got paid $22.00

- I don't remember

- Earl Johns stayed in the room with me -- at night

- I was pretty sure Gord was there but it's hard to be sure

- back then I didn't want to stay in Port Hope

- the guy with the goatee and dark sideburns must have been the guy who wasn't identified

- he had a goatee and dark hair, he wore blue jeans

- I can't remember

- I went back in after -- I had splattered blood on me

- I live with Grant Doris

- I had a crush on Larry Hurren

- after I eventually went into the front door, the police were there and I saw Bill covered in blood

- Julie said she didn't remember me being there

- I always had money from dancing

- I was one of the first dancers at the Queens

- in the afternoon Bill was really drunk

- I saw a hand gun or a knife in his boot -- I remember he was pulling his pant leg up

- this was in the

- I knew had a gun

- Sonny was just buying Bill drinks

- Bill was uptight

- when Sonny, Bill, Fred and Jamie and I were all drinking together

- somebody at the time was saying Bill's van or truck was filled with drugs

- Bill had a nice personality but he was ugly

- Jamie was supposed to be going out with Bill

- I definitely saw a gun in his boot

- I saw the gun in his boot mid-day

- I went to the Queens at the time it opened

- I remember drugs were mentioned

- I don't know if Bill was popping pills

- I think Bill undersold somebody in drugs -- that's the reason

(sort of waivery, is very flighty) ?

- asked Sammy to leave me alone

- Sammy insisted I go

- He came to my house and got me

- I told Sam I felt weird about going

- I hung around with Jamie

- Linda was there

- Julie was there

- after buying Bill drinks I had to come home, I later came back

- I was drinking with Bill when the three guys were there

- I left town 2-3 weeks after

- I didn't want to be involved

- I remember Sammy asking me to write out a statement

- I must have changed that statement 4 times

- I was at the cop shop at least twice

- me, another girl, Lorne Campbell and Red partied at the Pig Pen about 4 years ago

- I don't remember if Lorne was at the bar that night

- Lorne always wore cowboy boots and had his hair nicely done

- Torty is the guy who looked Mexican, he had a moustache

- I have difficulty remembering

- my mother never knew I hung around with them

- I partied often with the Choice

- Choice came into the bar a lot

- they never caused too much trouble, except once when they broke a mooring part and the thing caved in

- Bill and Julie were going out but I didn't make much of it

- Oct. 18th. was Bill's birthday

- half of Conspiracy of Brothers is lies

- I had the book and someone stole it

- the placing of the people was lies

- Larry came in the back door, he just sat down

- "Beachball" had blondish-red hair

- someone said Rick was asking after me in Port Hope

- I remember seeing Sue Foote there but I don't know if she saw me

- it's just the way the thing works, if you were there, you got charged

- the Hawks and Choice were enemies

- Jones and Bronson were just drinking

- Jamie Hanna is in Cobourg

- my brother might know

- Jamie hangs around with the sleazy broads from Bewdley

- Jamie is always in the bar across from the British

- the bar is at the 2nd. set of lights on right hand side

- from the time I was 17 I met lots of bikers

- we used to meet at a swimming hole near Welcome

- Cops took me to the P.H. police station, we went through a scrap book of pictures

- people I used to talk to said the Choice would get me -- I didn't believe it

- I don't hang out with Choice anymore

- no one helped me with my statement

- someone came to see me lately about the Anderson case -- Tracey Anderson

- I don't remember talking to the accused's lawyers

- because I gave evidence I was afraid I would be hurt by the Choice

- only once was I bothered because of it

- at the Simcoe Hotel about three to four years ago, I was chased out of the Simcoe Hotel. I went over to talk to one of the girls - they said we don't want you at this table -- a girl said, no that's not Helen Mitchell, but another said I was. I was told to get out of the hotel - three or four guys came after me - I ran through back yards, they didn't catch me

- Lorne Campbell is a pretty decent guy

- it was Shawn Robinson who was at the table -- he is younger than me

- Grant Doris is only 27

(subject has badly placed teeth)

- I got fired from Tanglewood for being involved in a dope bust

- Red is in Ajax, he is hiding from Outlaws

- Danny's Place is a popular Ajax bar

- Red had trouble with Outlaws

- Lorne Campbell used to hang out with Red

- Red is a little heavy, red hair --dancers used to board at his place

- Shawn Robinson was with the Choice 3 years ago

- I haven't seen Jamie Hanna is 3 years

- Jamie got married, had another baby then got divorced

- there was a guy who had a goatee and I thought it was Gord, this guy was 5'8"

- I never talked to the guy who wrote the book

- I knew Rod Stewart well

- I don't know if he was in the bar that night

- there were 7 or 8 guys from the Choice there

- I was drinking at home, then had a fight with Gary Scott, who I was married to for 3 weeks at the time

- I said I was going downtown, it was about 12:30, it was around the time the Hotel opened

- I went to the hotel

- two guys were with Bill

- Bill was sitting by the door, and then moved to the corner part where he got shot, the two guys joined him there

- I left then, came back and bought Bill a couple of drinks

- I bought Bill Sombuka -- we sure got drunk

- it might have been Linda

- I knew Gail Doyle

- I can't remember if she worked in the bar, she worked at the Queens, but I don't know if she was there then

- I don't remember

- I remember looking down and he had a gun in his boot

- I didn't ask about the gun

Clear Donut at 2:56 p.m. -- interview ended.

Called Bill Dunbar. I have still not heard from him re: Fred Jones. Left message for him to call me.

- reached Bill Dunbar on his phone

- Fred Jones is ruluctant

- Bill talked to Merv Blaker

- Bill talked to Don Graham, couldn't say much

- Bill would like to hear from Rick Sauve. He says he has to work through classification officer.

Contacted Rick Sauve and asked him to call Bill Dunbar and say it is cool to talk to Fred Jones. Gave Rick the number and he said he would call.

* New number 613-957-4717 - away from office 'til Tuesday next week. Left messsage for him to call.

Merv wants to talk in person. Merv is going to Victoria Park Ave., Pitts Ave., near St. Clair and Victoria Park. He will come up to our office in Aurora Sept. 4, 1992.

- he says there was another incident with Jones. Jones called him out.

- Chief O'Neil hassled Merv at his wedding to Karen

- he was there in plain clothes but later came back in uniform

- Roy Snyder and Gary Comeau had the same kind of build

- At Rick's place before going to the bar Rick had mentioned names of Fred Jones, Brian Brideau, Bill Matiyek and "some other Outlaws"

- the old man was grubby and had whiskers

- Merv went to a gas station on 9th. line (County Rd. 9 and County Rd. 10) in Hope Township near Bewdley

- at this garage there were a couple of Harley's

- garage is 3 miles south of Millbrook

- one guy had a tatoo said, "IN MEMORY OF PIPE LINE HEAVY"

- Merv never had any trouble with Bill Matiyek

- I do remember parties like Pig Roasts that GHMC would have

- Steve Easton, whose dad owns Easton's at #28 and 401 was a good friend of Merv's

- Steve was also a GHMC

Merv cleared office at 8:45 p.m.

- at one point Gary's mother even thought Fig was Gary

- Gary says Fig was not at the bar

- says Broadbent is plugging away

- Mr. X might be talking to my sister this week-end

- first off Carol is going to talk to Mr. X and ask if he'll talk to O'Hara and Broadbent

- Gary has not talked to Mr. X

- Gary was told by an individual who used to be in the club that he ran into Campbell

- Campbell said to this individual that he had received documents from Justice in the form of a warning and confession

- Gary believes Campbell knows the bottom line

- Gary has been talking to Rick Sauve

- Gary told JB to keep Thomas in the ...

Background -- Mr. X. - no problem - "Fig was not there"

Carol is talking to Campbell this week-end

* Hill has a meeting with the Warden

- Rick Galbraith, Gary Galbraith, brothers

- thinks Rick will help

- Newman sent an investigator to check out Galbraith

- Clayton Ruby also worked for Larry

- Larry thinks Galbraith is very important

- ask Newman about Meinhardt calling Roy McMurtry during the trial

- Larry says the trial was stopped at several points where Meinhardt would go and phone McMurtry's office

- Larry was friendly with "Pineline Heavy" and deeply regrets his death

- Lorne Campbell was at one time a Collector for Larry Hurren

- NB -- says Tory drove White Van

- Larry still remains in contact with Bruce Affleck

- Larry retained Clay Ruby at one point as well as Newman

- Newman was aware of Meinhardt phoning McMurtry's office during the trial

- McMurtry wanted a conviction at any cost

- Larry had a daughter at the time

- Linda, his present wife is pregnant and the two already have a small baby

- met Dan, Larry's next-door neighbour

- Larry is going to make arrangements with his parole officer to come to our office in Aurora and discuss case further

Cleared 699 Wesley at 2:15 a.m. Sept. 5/92.

Notes re: Hurren meeting.

(1) Larry Hurren arrived at bar with Lorne Campbell

(2) Larry Hurren left the bar with John Tortolano in "Torty's" white van which was parked out front of the Queen's Hotel

(3) Larry has asked if there is any double jeopardy for him if there is a new trial and he gets "fucked" again. His wife seems to be the purveyor of that paranoid fear.

Sept. 5, 1992

- search for Lawrence Leon

- his sister-in-law says she believes he is in "Perry Town"

- Lorne Campbell is in Orillia

- this is where my friend had seen his letter

- there is some Old Bird they live with

- Charmagne is sick

- he has a different phone number

- phone number has been given to Carol's friend

- "Chicklet" is the guy who has the number

- Carol will ask Campbell if wants to talk

- I am to call Carol later in the day to find out if Lorne will talk to me

Meanwhile - 10:45 p.m. headed for Orillia

- Lorne is in Belleville

- Carol has called "Chicklet" - he says Lorne is in Belleville

I am to call Carol back. Drove to Port Perry and to Carol's place. South of 7A in Lakeview, left on Orchard, left to 126 Blosson St. -- Carol Noseworthy.

- Lorne did get a letter

- Doug is at Lorne's place

- the letter warns, just talked to J.B.

- Lorne in Belleville - 613-967-2273

- Gary talked to John at Lorne's place

Cleared Carol's at 4:00 p.m.

Sept. 6/92 - Drove to Peterborough

- Post Office is 201 Charlotte Street

- Corrections Canada, 185 King Street (Suite 204, Parole) 742-8889

- this is where Bill Dunbar's office is. It overlooks the Canada Post truck parking lot. Fred Jones likely works for Canada Post.

- within sight of 185 King are companies operating or possibly operating trucks

(1) Canada Post (2) Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters, and in one of 3 trucks is name Bevan - home - 376-1389 (3) Craig Containers, 168 Sherbroke St. (4) Larry Electric - 743-3167 (5) LCBO. "Laurie Jones and Company Hair Designers" 165 Sherbroke St. P.Q. - 748-5000

Left Peterborough at 7:22 p.m. Sept. 6.

Arrived Belleville via Warkworth at 9:00 p.m.

Ray Ealey - 476-3913

Bernie Guindon - 1-416-579-3902

Northbrook - 1 hour from Belleville to Napanee - 401 to Napanee turn right - Called 967-2273 and talked to little girl, she ways Northbrook is were Campbells are

- Wendy & Pete would know the address

- they were here but then they decided to get a place of their own

- about 45 minutes after you get off the 401

* Lorne's number 336-8561 area 613* Lorne Campbell's number in Northbrook.

- Lorne says the people who gave evidence saying (1) *Fat Fucker statement and (2) *If you don't leave town we'll get you -- are the ones to focus on

- these were the key things to convict the six of 1st. degree murder and 2nd degree murder and they are fabrications

- Lorne says John Hill and his assistant came to see him and he believes lied to him

- Lorne says they treated him like a stupid person

- Lorne says that Nutty is nutty and won't listen to him on the two important points that he has set out

- Lorne says Rick Sauve understands

* Lorne says "Didn't you get a letter from my lawyer"

* I told him exactly what the content of that letter was. I told him I didn't completely understand the letter and I told him that he should talk to us and avail himself of the information we have obtained should he find himself before the courts in the matter.

* Lorne says he won't be doing that and he doesn't expect to find himself before courts.

- Lorne says no one has done as much as he has done and he has done enough and will do no more.

- he says he will not confirm or deny having received information, a letter or whatever, from Justice

- I had told him that Comeau on two occasions had told me Lorne got a letter from Justice

- Campbell was offered my phone number and he refused to take it

- I told him I didn't want him to give me a statement

- he also said that it was better there be 6 convicted and not 7.

- I told Lorne that he should not sign any confession or take any steps in that direction until he has apprised himself of materials in our files

- he said send them to me

- I said I'd rather send them to his lawyer

- he said OK

- I asked him if I could then contact his lawyer and talk to his lawyer before doing that

- he said "No"

- he said I want you to consider the two things:- the Fat Fucker statement and the Get out of town or we'll kill you, type threat, allegedly made to Bill Matiyek.

Telephone inverview with Mr. Campbell ended at 11:55 a.m. Sept. 7/92.

Howard is not at home but will return tonight. His wife gave office number. Howard's car phone - 373-2627.

- grabbed map and coffee

- observed John Hill at Drug Store (IDA or Super Drugs at Hwy 45 near 401)

Headed for #10 and #9 intersect. gas station at SE corner where Merv Blaker says he has observed bikers wearing a tatoo "In memory of Pipeline Heavy"

- town name is *Garden Hill *Olco station

- the gas station is a few kilometres North of Welcome on the 10th. line, north of Perrytown, where Lawrence Leon lives

- 797-2120 - TX6 976 -- tow truck - Beaches Towing

Sept. 7, 1992 - 3:50 p.m.

387 JHX - Caprice, vehicle at Garden Hill Garage Ltd., corner of 9 and #10

- at house next door on same lot 433 BHY - Parissiene

- UL2 913

- talked to Mandy in Clay Ruby's office and asked her to dig up the file on Larry Hurren.

Need to ask Rick Sauve if he talked to Dunbar.

Rick Sauve called at 5:42 p.m.

- says Dunbar called him today. He called Terry's office.

Lawrence Leoen called in response to message I left with his wife

- The Choice started as Golden Hawk Riders

- half the GHMC's

- Mick Lowe

- I'm on the road trucking

- "Heavy Pipelines"

- me and Matiyek road across Canada twice

- I am 51 today

- I got to know Bill when he chummed around with my younger brother

- the book claimed a bunch of things I said but I didn't really say them

Sept. 9 - 8:50 p.m. - Gary Comeau - phone conversation with M.O'Brien.

Mr.X got a letter asking for authorization to release the notes. Mr. X got a letter from his lawyer saying don't sign any release, but furthermore, Mr. X's lawyer, Clay Ruby, told Mr. X that it was unlikely a change would be laid against Mr. X.

Gary says he got the wires all crossed up. He says it happens sometimes.

Gary says Campbell called his sister and said that I had called him. Gary says Lorne was peeved. I said tough luck.

We discussed the possibility of a charge against Campbell and what impact it would have on the McLeod et al accused. We deferred that conversation to another date.

Clay Ruby 964-9664

- Jeff Broadbent called Bill Dunbar

- Fred Jones has his life together -- he is worried that the whole thing will come donw on him

- Fred has decided he doesn't want to talk to us

- Bill heard my argument in favour of a meeting and agreed to talk to Fred Jones again

Sept. 10 - 4:32 p.m. - Eleanor Wilson - Nurse at Port Hope Hospital Eleanor Wilson called; I recall the murder but I am quite certain I wasn't on duty that night. I can remember my first husband, who was a newspaper reporter at the time, filling me in on details of the matter, so I would remember if I was there. The only thing I can do is see if anyone at the Hospital can remember.

September 12, - Bob MacDonald - Attorney General's office

- Bob is fairly nice guy

- he doesn't confirm or deny the existance of wires of the SCMC, 1865 Markham Rd. Clubhouse

- he says the best way to go is via the Access to Information Act (FOI)

- Section 745, Judicial review and Section 690 -- do not have the devices to put the key in the door for a Judge to allow access

- from Bob I got the hint that the (?) might exist

- I promised Bob I would send him a copy of the book

Sept. 17, 1992 - 8:19 p.m. - Gary Comeau - on phone

- says John Hill had meeting with warden. Warden is pissed off with the letter Gary sent.

- I was talking to Terry earlier, Terry says unless there is something of great consequence, he doesn't want to proceed.

Called Jeffrey Broadbent today -- he was too busy to talk. Says he talked to Bill Dunbar briefly.

613-828-5378

Friday, Sept. 25/92 - 7:54 - 8:30 p.m. - Gary Comeau

- Gary got a call from A-G as a result of an FO he has put together

- Earl Johns from PHPD called Gary

- Gary said to Earl Johns -- please say hello to Sam McReelis

- A P.A. said Sam is having a hard time sleeping

- told Gary we might take a left turn and head to Ottawa direct.

September 30, 1992 - Gary Comeau, Warkworth - 1:30 p.m.

- Gary says Affleck once told the accused in a meeting that Meinhardt would have to talk to "Uncle Roy evey night"

- Gary is the 2nd person who has said that he overheard a lawyer say Meinhardt was in regular contact with McMurtry

- It was a guy named Williamson who told John Hill -- "If your client would identify the gunman then you might have a chance with the next 690"

- Gary told the doctor at Whitby jail that he had been shot and that he wanted to get the bullet out

CONSPIRACY

(1) Comeau was never advised that he was "wired" on the phone or anywhere, at any time.

(2) The CSC System refused to have the bullet removed from Gary Comeau

(3) The Crown tried to put the actual shooting on Gary Comeau

- Gary seems to remember that Matiyek jostled something in his right pocket, it was a gun

- Matiyek also had a gun in his left hand

- Gary says coppers deliberately..

October 6, 1992 - Merv Blaker - 8:00 p.m.

Q1. Is there anything Fred Jones might tell us that could cause a problem for Gary?

A.: I don't think so.

Q2. What have you heard on the investigation?

A.: The Chief of Police was talking on the radio. He said a police officer with a good record was being investigated and that everything would turn out OK. He said it might have something to do with the Bill Matiyek murder.

Q3. Do you think the O.P.P. would act on their findings?

A.: They mentioned that evidence would go to the Crown for analysis. They mentioned Toroto O.P.P.

Q4. Have you talked to Gary lately?

A.: He phoned on Saturday and he sounded very optomistic.

Q5. Would Fred Jones say anything that would hurt Gary?

A.: No, I can't think of anything.

Notes to file:

- We are no longer interested in the SCMC members at the bar -- enough of those we have talked to put the thing on Campbell.

- Terry has been in contact with the CIB investigations

Phoned Jeff Broadbent at 7:30 p.m. approx.

- Broadbent is hostile (??) says the system is corrupt

- says he wants addresses of witnesses -- I said no -- he is furious

- he hasn't read the witnesses statements -- why does he want addresses

- wants statements that Wakely and Wilson made, plus Shortreed

- we want to incorporate(?) the thing and see what we have got

- we have a sworn statment -- Davey (also have other statements)

- March of 1992 is the last that Jeff Broadbent has

- Broadbent says he doesn't think we should go after Jones

- he apologizes for being rude

- the way I see it is this meeting has to take place

- No, I will not contact Dunbar

- so far the lawyers haven't seen any substantive out-and-out, down and dirty proof

- Proof of what?

- show them everything you have got because...

- you have got to show them

- before the meeting we are going to see Jones -- Comeau says no

- I am not totally ..

- looking for Cam Christie who is editor of Cobourg Daily Star - day off

- tried a few #s, then tried Don Shortreed - 855-4184

October 7th. - Allison Funeral Home - Don Allison Jr.

- Oct. 18/78 records: - born Aug. 25, 1950 - funeral Oct. 21, 1978

- Dr. Ray Tesluk, Coroner

- Dad picked him up at 8:30 a.m. from Port Hope Hospital

- Knoxville Cem., 286 5th. line north

- Doris passed away couple of years ago

- Gord's brother-in-law

- Metro, Lot 7 Conniff, Hope Township - 885-5943

- Rev. P. Wyatt

- there may have been a cooler at the hospital

- the body was not guarded at the hospital

- Tesluk is on Cavon St., Ray is pretty good

- there were undercover cops at the funeral

- all we had was one rrom at the time, we couldn't get everyone in the chapel

- cops were taking pictures of everyone

- every Concession Rd. intersection had O.P.P. on the funeral procession

- average size funeral apart from public offices

- private family service

- no other snoops been around

- Bill Matiyuk was no angel

- Bill was a big mean cowardly son of a bitch

- Allison Sr. got an injury and developed limp after lifting B.m.

- Bill Goodwin .. works in Bewdley

- Ray Tesluk is at 50 Cavon St. 885-8221, home 885-8279

- used own Stationwagon for removal - 8:30 a.m.

- Powell is a jerk

- the other thing with this funeral, dozens of friends say they were at the hotel just hours before it all happened

- Cathy Cotgrave, she had a baby die 7 years ago

- Rod Steward is a jerk -- he did OK for himself

- Bill Matiyek looked good -- it was an open casket

- no damage to jaw

- Sam has an ego, not a popular guy

- some girl who was coming down and screwing the guys at TCS, Sam took the girl to 15 Trafalgar -- cops phoned Barb and said get home and see what is happening

- Milroy is still in business in Cobourg until a month ago -- Wayne Milroy

- didn't know ambulence drivers at the time

- Eleanor Wilson was Eleanor Cattering(?)

- Larry Hall was political -- he got fired from the

- Betty Lucas is out Matiyek's way

Ambulance drivers

- Cannibac

- Bob Dechone - 372-2081 Ambulance Services

- Tim Austin

Attended at PH Hospital and visited Admin. office

- a certain female - Liz Jacobitz was told we are looking for the names of nurses who attended Bill Matiyek, Oct. 18, 1978.

- woman was weird, she said all this was confidential, but it was not her department and she would properly refer the matter

- she then followed us to the ambulance room where she proceeded to interfere

- I asked attendants (2) what vehicles were being driven by them in 1979 (Ford/Chev/Dodge,etc.) -- both indicated they were not around then so didn't remember

Rod Stewart -- Firby Books - 5:05 p.m. - Interviewed Rod Stewart

- he remembers rolling over Matiyek's body and hearing gurgling noises, signs of life coming from Matiyek

- says he knew nothing about gun -- says he doesn't remember knowing abut a gun 'til after some months past the trial

- he knew Doug Peart for a few years

- he said a copper told him - don't touch that stuff, it was grey stuff -- Matiyek's brains

- he didn't see a gun

- he doesn't remember drugs

- he had seen Bill Matiyek several times that day because he had been in the bar 3 or 4 times measuring it

- Bill was getting drunker and drunker each time Stewart saw Bill

- Stewart made a joke about his so called horseshoe

- Stewart took our ID cards and photocopied them then returned them

Aggie & Leo Roy NFY 836 - 14 Walnut St.

Oct. 7th - 6:49

Called Bill Matiyek's father Metro -- he won't talk at all about it -- I am not telling you no line

Oct. 7, 1992 - 7:18 - Bill Goodwin - 797-2520 - Bewdley

- wife's name Julie - talked to her and gave Brian Michael's name

XD4 816 - R.Red I - WT8 826 - 089 CXX - XJN 421 - VHO 576

Oct. 7th. - 8:00 p.m. - called Roger Davie

- gave him my name and number and asked him to think over his testimony and events relating to McReelis' coercion then phone me. He was (?)

Surveillance on firehall -- plates listed previously

8:37 p.m. set up observation on Poplar St. -- cleared at 9:02 p.m.

Drove to Eussus(?) - met Bill Wakeley at 9:45 p.m.

- Mrs. Boundy was the nurse at that time

- Dave MacDonald is pissed off at the job

- Mike Connors is the O.P.P. investigator he spoke to

- Sam, MacDonald and Wilson on the scene

- Moore offered several times toget CIB involved byut Sam said no

- have we talked to Jim Moore?

- he is in Toronto somewhere, he made Sgt. in PQ and then went to Toronto to study fingerprint technology

- Caplan was charged for giving Matiyek the gun

- when Jim Moore and Bill Wakeley went back to the station Wilson and McReelis were interviewing

- day of funeral Don Davis went with cameras to take pics

* - Tim Austin was driving that night

- did he/they see Sam come in tht night

- Bill got shit from Meinhardt for not having words cut out

Clear 11:24

(1) Tim Austin was driver

(2) Mrs. Boundy was nurse

(3) Roy Tesluk was at hospital before Bill Wakely

October 13, 1992 6:40 PM Called Eleanor Wilson

Asked about Mrs. Boundy. She passed away some years ago., Eleanor doesn't remember who else might have worked at the hospital that night.

753-2392 - Welcome area -- Betty Lucas is retired. She was not at the hospital that night.

Vivian Fleming might have been there. She did a lot of night work . But if if Mrs. Bounty was there Vivian wasn't. They did opposite shifts. Vivian just retired last year.

Mary Lunney worked at the hospital then. I am not positive. She was a supervisor. She moved up north. I don't know if she is still living.

Sam McReelis or Gary Woods that I know personally. I have a brother-in-law with the OPP. I only had one little part. I had it out with the lawyer there. I had just heard something. I was conned into it. I didn't go to the preliminary hearings or anything. Someone shot their mouth off to the cops about something I said when I thought I was speaking in confidence. If you can get Sam McReelis to come and sit with us then I will answer questions. I hadn't seen him for about ten years before that. I just see Sam in the summertime. I saw him at ball during the summer. His son played ball against my son. I know other guys but I feel more comfortable. I have known kenny Wilson. I never went back. I wasn't stealing newspapers. I got a $150.00 fine. It wasn't a paper box. The papers were outside the Max Milk store. I would normally grab my paper and pay later. I was a little behind. A new manager. They didn't know I knew anything at the time. I got an apology. I was spread over the car and roughed up. I didn't hire a lawyer. I had a manager and six clerks who said I paid. OPP charged me on the drinking thing. Wilson got me for impaired. Wilson and I were friends. Kenny was like that he would nail his own sister. I used to ride on the back of his motorcycle, Kenny was pissed off because I mouthed off about the newspaper thing. So Kenny hung around one night I was in the bar. He got me for being over .8. I wasn't really impaired. Kenny apologized later saying he was stressed out over the Matiyek thing. They were doing their job.

Anyway. You get Sam or Gary Woods to sit down with us and I'll talk to you. (Rapport has built. Bill Goodwin is talking openly about the charges. ) I'll call Sam and talked to Sam about you. OK. What did you say your name was, Micheal O'Brien ... OK I'll get in touch with Sam and talk to Sam about you.

End 7:20 October 13, 1992